Another close call
- Thread starter Wardogg
- Start date
Cherokee_Cruiser
Bronteroc
Yikes.
It's only gonna get worse. New ATC, new pilots, the newbie factor will definitely come into play more going forward. Our shop put out a little note a lil while ago about newer people everywhere: ramp, agents, ATC, and pilots. And to watch out and slow things down, don't assume it's correct.
My personal rule of thumb, if I'm taking off one complex of runway and the departure has me turning into the other complex runway, I will ALWAYS ask to clarify if they really want us doing that. This is the same thing. 26 departure with 25, and the 26 departure is turning south into the 25 complex? That should be an immediate call to clarify.
One time we were at SFO on 1R for departure, told to expect a heading on departure, right turn. Then we got switched to 1L at M. Now that I'm taking off the left side, I have a problem accepting a right turn after departure into the 1R traffic departures. We asked them if he still wanted an expect right heading on departure now that we're on 1L? He said standby. And then issued an entirely new SID for 1L.
Mistakes happen, BOTH pilots and ATC.
I think it should be common sense 101 that if you are departing one runway complex, and the turn after takeoff is turning you into the OTHER departure complex of that airport, then should be a mandatory clarification from clearance or tower.
It's only gonna get worse. New ATC, new pilots, the newbie factor will definitely come into play more going forward. Our shop put out a little note a lil while ago about newer people everywhere: ramp, agents, ATC, and pilots. And to watch out and slow things down, don't assume it's correct.
My personal rule of thumb, if I'm taking off one complex of runway and the departure has me turning into the other complex runway, I will ALWAYS ask to clarify if they really want us doing that. This is the same thing. 26 departure with 25, and the 26 departure is turning south into the 25 complex? That should be an immediate call to clarify.
One time we were at SFO on 1R for departure, told to expect a heading on departure, right turn. Then we got switched to 1L at M. Now that I'm taking off the left side, I have a problem accepting a right turn after departure into the 1R traffic departures. We asked them if he still wanted an expect right heading on departure now that we're on 1L? He said standby. And then issued an entirely new SID for 1L.
Mistakes happen, BOTH pilots and ATC.
I think it should be common sense 101 that if you are departing one runway complex, and the turn after takeoff is turning you into the OTHER departure complex of that airport, then should be a mandatory clarification from clearance or tower.
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Cherokee_Cruiser
Bronteroc
I do have one problem with this particular scenario, the EXACT same problem as the LAX ATC lady versus an Eva 777 out of LAX.
Spoken very fast, in this case to Southwest, "Turn left immediately, due south."
The only reason I know that is because the captions are present and I read them.
If my eyes were closed, I heard "turn left immediately, do so!"
And if you notice, it doesn't sound like Southwest heard "due south." It sounds like they heard turn immediately, do so! Because Southwest announces they have turned 30 left of course.
At LAX, the ATC lady is screaming at the foreign Eva pilots who are heading NORTH to, and I quote, "turn south! turn southbound NOW!" To a foreign crew, who area heading north directly at mountains (cause she put them there, with a mental model they were on west flow but in reality an east flow). Now the crew didn't know to turn left or turn right, nor did they probably compute that South means 180 at that very moment. They continued towards the mountains.
News flash ATC, our heading is 0 to 359 inclusive. We all know 180 is South but when push comes to shove, in the heat of the moment, GIVE THE PILOTS A FREAKIN HEADING.
Stop saying turn south now!
This is twice now I've seen an immediate TURN SOUTH NOW instruction that is not understood, or not complied with, both Eva and now Southwest.
Would be interested in hearing an ATC take on this @NovemberEcho
Would you concur? Isn't it better to just say the actual heading? You tell us a number, and it's far more likely a pilot will dial it in with the heading bug.
Spoken very fast, in this case to Southwest, "Turn left immediately, due south."
The only reason I know that is because the captions are present and I read them.
If my eyes were closed, I heard "turn left immediately, do so!"
And if you notice, it doesn't sound like Southwest heard "due south." It sounds like they heard turn immediately, do so! Because Southwest announces they have turned 30 left of course.
At LAX, the ATC lady is screaming at the foreign Eva pilots who are heading NORTH to, and I quote, "turn south! turn southbound NOW!" To a foreign crew, who area heading north directly at mountains (cause she put them there, with a mental model they were on west flow but in reality an east flow). Now the crew didn't know to turn left or turn right, nor did they probably compute that South means 180 at that very moment. They continued towards the mountains.
News flash ATC, our heading is 0 to 359 inclusive. We all know 180 is South but when push comes to shove, in the heat of the moment, GIVE THE PILOTS A FREAKIN HEADING.
Stop saying turn south now!
This is twice now I've seen an immediate TURN SOUTH NOW instruction that is not understood, or not complied with, both Eva and now Southwest.
Would be interested in hearing an ATC take on this @NovemberEcho
Would you concur? Isn't it better to just say the actual heading? You tell us a number, and it's far more likely a pilot will dial it in with the heading bug.
Victor Squawk
Well-Known Member
They talk quite fast
You don't get clicks/likes with more information.
No worries. Gryder and Cornholio will be right in top of it with their prime time accident investigation concluded inside an hour.
Now those two clowns seemingly go up against one another in their videos from what I’ve heard.
NovemberEcho
Dergs favorite member
I’m surprised they haven’t picked up on the TEB departures off 24 that screw the SID up and either climb through Ewr final or worse turn southbound for some reason yet
Even if the two airliners are going different directions in their first turn, would P50 normally release tower to launch simultaneous departures from parallel runways? Or do they stagger them at least a little bit, in order to avoid something like this from occurring at all? While these are two different complexes, at PHX supposedly, with two different tower freqs, the runways really aren’t that far apart from one another compared to some other large airports.
NovemberEcho
Dergs favorite member
Idk the distances between the runway but if it’s greater than 2500’ then simultaneous is fine so long as they meet certain course divergence minima. Probably more rules involved than that but I’m not going to look them up right now lol. Maybe @greg1016 can shed some light there. But I don’t know how their ops work; every place I’ve worked runways have been under 2500’ so we use one for departures and one for arrivals. I’ve never worked parallels using both for same type op
BobDDuck
Island Bus Driver
The 8s in Honolulu are just over 7000 feet apart, and they will routinely launch aircraft simultaneously off of those, both with turns to the right.
Unrelated but way worse is the (totally legal) scenario where they will have an aircraft descending below 600 feet, in the close in left downwind for the 4s, crossing directly over or in front of an aircraft in the flare for 8L. I asked a controller once what I should do if I had to go around with another airplane directly in front of me and 500 feet above me, and his response was to not go around.
Lemme check...
(pause)
Nope, nothing yet. I am quite titilated though. I guess he knew that Delta jet had a "textbook" engine failure before even the internal preliminary report is out.
It's magic!
Which he? Both of them? Or Gryder?
Seriously, if we just hired these guys into the NTSB, the other investigators could just sit around like the Maytag repairman, since there’d be nothing to investigate after these two wrapped up all investigations inside an hour.
///AMG
Well-Known Member
you should google "aircraft carrier covey launch"
that being said, the procedure is each aircraft takes an immediate 30 deg check turn away from each other for a few seconds based on launch heading, thus deconflicting aircraft.......NOT both aircraft turning in the same direction. But I think those "runways" are maybe 30-50' apart?
roundout
VNAV monitor
Shades of when DEN ATC used to come in to recurrent ground at GreenBus. Some similar comment was made and the controller said “we love you guys, you never go around, and it makes our lives easier!” the facilitator was like “uh you can’t say that, please don’t say that.”
Avalon781ML
Well-Known Member
The quote one of my favorite TV series “The Wire”…. Shhhheeeeeeeeriiiiiiiiiiiitttttt!
That could’ve been real bad. Thoughts and prayers.
That could’ve been real bad. Thoughts and prayers.
Crockrocket94
Well-Known Member
"Im done with it"
That controller sounded a bit wound up after the event - I get it. From the thousand yard view, looks like American was flying what they were cleared and could be a mix up from clearance. Good thing he checked in with his departure SID...
That controller sounded a bit wound up after the event - I get it. From the thousand yard view, looks like American was flying what they were cleared and could be a mix up from clearance. Good thing he checked in with his departure SID...
I think the controller was probably just busy with traffic and didn’t have time to discuss the matter, so he just pressed on with his work, since nothing happened with it.
Kingairer
'Tiger Team' Member
I agree with your assessment. Certainly sounded like it got his heartrate up, with good reason, and it wasnt his screw up and didnt have time to investigate the "why and how" and was trying to breathe again.
Avalon781ML
Well-Known Member
If he did more kegel exercises it wouldn’t have been a thang.