And yet another safety pilot question...

Hubbs

Well-Known Member
I know that everyone is tired of reading these stupid threads, however, I am unsure on a couple of things and would really appreciate some help.

As I understand it, if the two pilots agree before the flight that the safety pilot will be PIC for the flight, then both pilots can log PIC time (as the pilot under the hood is the sole manipulator FAR 61.51). Whereas if it is decided that the pilot under the hood is going to be PIC then the safety pilot can log SIC for the duration of the flight that the PIC was under the hood. Is this correct?

What I am not sure of, is logging the time in the first instance. If it is decided that the safety pilot is going to be PIC for the flight, then is he able to log the entire duration of the flight or just the time that he is a required crew member (eg when the the other pilot is under the hood). If it is the latter, how can he be the PIC for the flight? Unless of course the safety pilot performs the take-off and landing and all the taxi-time on the ground and the pilot under the hood then only logs the time he/she spends under the hood.

Or do people just not get too deep into semantics and both just log the entire flight.

Thanks for your input!
 

matt152

Well-Known Member
I am sure tgrayson and midlifeflyer will chime in here but:

As I understand it, if the two pilots agree before the flight that the safety pilot will be PIC for the flight, then both pilots can log PIC time (as the pilot under the hood is the sole manipulator FAR 61.51). Whereas if it is decided that the pilot under the hood is going to be PIC then the safety pilot can log SIC for the duration of the flight that the PIC was under the hood. Is this correct?
Yes

What I am not sure of, is logging the time in the first instance. If it is decided that the safety pilot is going to be PIC for the flight, then is he able to log the entire duration of the flight or just the time that he is a required crew member (eg when the the other pilot is under the hood). If it is the latter, how can he be the PIC for the flight? Unless of course the safety pilot performs the take-off and landing and all the taxi-time on the ground and the pilot under the hood then only logs the time he/she spends under the hood.
Yes, the safety pilot only logs when the other pilot is under the hood. So the guy manipulating the controls (i.e. during taxi) is the only one who can log PIC. The other pilot is a passenger at that point.

Or do people just not get too deep into semantics and both just log the entire flight.
I live and die for semantics!

Matt (B.A. Philosophy, Boston College, 2000)
 

azpilot84

New Member
It should be total time under the hood for the safety to log PIC as that is the only time they are really acting as a saftey pilot.

Though many take that rule to mean if your on a IFR plan in VMC both can log PIC for the whole flight. Some try to mak it look real by shaving a couple minutes of the total flight time (ie total time is 5.2 and the safety logs 4.9 PIC).
 

gtpilot

Well-Known Member
I know that everyone is tired of reading these stupid threads, however, I am unsure on a couple of things and would really appreciate some help.
Questions are good - means you're thinking!

As I understand it, if the two pilots agree before the flight that the safety pilot will be PIC for the flight, then both pilots can log PIC time (as the pilot under the hood is the sole manipulator FAR 61.51). Whereas if it is decided that the pilot under the hood is going to be PIC then the safety pilot can log SIC for the duration of the flight that the PIC was under the hood. Is this correct?
First part correct - second part, SIC can only be logged if the aircraft (or operating certificate) requires another crew member. The safety pilot is PIC while the other pilot is under the hood and no other arrangement can be made.

What I am not sure of, is logging the time in the first instance. If it is decided that the safety pilot is going to be PIC for the flight, then is he able to log the entire duration of the flight or just the time that he is a required crew member (eg when the the other pilot is under the hood). If it is the latter, how can he be the PIC for the flight? Unless of course the safety pilot performs the take-off and landing and all the taxi-time on the ground and the pilot under the hood then only logs the time he/she spends under the hood.
Again, the safety pilot can only log the time he is 'acting' as PIC while the other pilot is under the hood. Once the hood comes off, either pilot can be PIC but not both.

Or do people just not get too deep into semantics and both just log the entire flight.
Yes. The fun argument is whether the safety pilot can log xc time if he did not perform a take-off and landing at both the departure and arrival airports!
 

gtpilot

Well-Known Member
I stand corrected, legal council in Oct 1992 issued a letter of interpretation covering the difference between 'acting PIC' and 'actual PIC'. In the letter, Donald Byrne explicitly states that the safety pilot can log the time as SIC.
 

tgrayson

New Member
second part, SIC can only be logged if the aircraft (or operating certificate) requires another crew member. The safety pilot is PIC while the other pilot is under the hood and no other arrangement can be made.
That's not true. According to 61.51(f), a pilot can log SIC when "more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is being conducted."
 

gtpilot

Well-Known Member
That's not true. According to 61.51(f), a pilot can log SIC when "more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is being conducted."
Beat you to it! ;)
 

danielhv

New Member
Another question: If the 'hood' pilot is IFR rated but the safety pilot is not, can the safety pilot log PIC whilst under an IFR plan in VMC with the other pilot under the hood?
Chris, after some digging I found the answer:

The fact that you are actually on an IFR flight plan means that YOU have to be listed as PIC. Your safety pilot cannot be listed as PIC because he is not instrument rated. I would think that that would make you the legal PIC and the Safety pilot therefore cannot log the PIC. But he can log SIC.

Guess we will have to go VFR.
 

Hubbs

Well-Known Member
Chris, after some digging I found the answer:

The fact that you are actually on an IFR flight plan means that YOU have to be listed as PIC. Your safety pilot cannot be listed as PIC because he is not instrument rated. I would think that that would make you the legal PIC and the Safety pilot therefore cannot log the PIC. But he can log SIC.

Guess we will have to go VFR.
I don't mind logging SIC if you want to file IFR, it makes very little difference to me.
 

MidlifeFlyer

Well-Known Member
Are you aware that the 61.55(f) exemption of the safety pilot from needing an instrument rating when acting as SIC has been changed, removing this exemption?
Yes. The change to 61.55(d) was in 2005 if I remember correctly.

Does my FAQ talk about the exemption? Or a safety pilot under IFR scenario? I didn't think it did. If one of my FAQ touches on the subject, please let me know. :eek:
 

tgrayson

New Member
Yes. The change to 61.55(d) was in 2005 if I remember correctly.
It didn't show up in the Far/Aim until 2007. I found the change in the Federal Register, forget the date. Sounds like the exemption was a mistake to begin with.

No, you don't have it in your FAQ. I just attached the question to this post. I went looking for the exemption yesterday and was startled not to find it.
 

MidlifeFlyer

Well-Known Member
It didn't show up in the Far/Aim until 2007. I found the change in the Federal Register, forget the date. Sounds like the exemption was a mistake to begin with.

No, you don't have it in your FAQ. I just attached the question to this post. I went looking for the exemption yesterday and was startled not to find it.
The old exemption for safety pilots was a blanket one - nothing in 61.55 applied. Now the exemption for safety pilot only applies to the 61.55(b) familiarization requirements.

Whether the full exemption was a mistake to begin with or the rewrite of 61.55 intentionally changed it or the 61.55 rewrite accidentally changed it, I haven't a clue.
 

ghogue

Well-Known Member
It didn't show up in the Far/Aim until 2007. I found the change in the Federal Register, forget the date. Sounds like the exemption was a mistake to begin with.

No, you don't have it in your FAQ. I just attached the question to this post. I went looking for the exemption yesterday and was startled not to find it.
I checked my old copies of FAR/AIM and found the exemption effective in the 2006 version. 2003, 04, 05 are pretty much the same as today's version, which I show changed in 2007.
 
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