And the winner is...

So there was 31 colgan Q's (according to wiki) right? Where are the other 3 going?

I hope RAH buys Colgan so the staff there can keep their jobs. Better than nothing.


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Two were leasebacks... They went to the desert a few weeks back if I recall correctly.

The third may have been the white tail that was used a spare during the botched first class upgrades.
 
TUCKnTRUCK said:
Right.. Honestly, all things aside, the "easiest" way to pull this off I just to take Colgan. Colgan was gone anyways, so it's a cheap buy.

On the flip side, if 9l didn't get sold off, keeping the contract stipulated displacement rights would put 9e in a deep hole. They haven't moved for out of order furloughs... I would think because there is a good chance Colgan goes.

I would think you guys would want a fair amount of the contract language the Colgan contract brings with it as well
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Your logic is faulty. Hiring 160 pilots and upgrading 160 pilots between now and November is not more difficult then integrating the entire Colgan op into RAH

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Trip7 said:
Your logic is faulty. Hiring 160 pilots and upgrading 160 pilots between now and November is not more difficult then integrating the entire Colgan op into RAH

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Couldn't you integrate the Colgan op into RAH with just an indoc class?

Not saying it will happen, but wouldn't that be the path of least resistance.
 
Trip7 said:
Your logic is faulty. Hiring 160 pilots and upgrading 160 pilots between now and November is not more difficult then integrating the entire Colgan op into RAH

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Click to expand...
your logic is missing everything that goes into supporting an operation. RAH is pretty adapt and integrating airlines.

Colgan was parking all it's planes, the assests would have been sold of in ch.11 for a great loss. By selling the entire ticket, the alleviate themselfs from the debt owed on the planes, parts, and operation. I doubt they were asking much for the ticket.

The XJ cert is a dead certificate with a clean name... easy to package in the sale.

Really, honestly, if you can pick up the whole deal for a significntly lower cost than starting up your own op, why wouldn't you? Do you think BB gives a crap about integrating pilot lists?

Do you even know whats involved with getting an op like that off the ground? I was around the first time they brought the Q's into ewr. I was there to watch them run out of sim time doing 6-10 pilots a month. I was there when we didn't have parts inventory yet. When we didn't have a full mx staff that knew the plane. I was paired with a check airman that had 15 hours in type.

Untill you have been though that mess, it seems "easy" trust me, the easy answer is not to do it if there is no need.
 
TUCKnTRUCK said:
your logic is missing everything that goes into supporting an operation. RAH is pretty adapt and integrating airlines.

Colgan was parking all it's planes, the assests would have been sold of in ch.11 for a great loss. By selling the entire ticket, the alleviate themselfs from the debt owed on the planes, parts, and operation. I doubt they were asking much for the ticket.

The XJ cert is a dead certificate with a clean name... easy to package in the sale.

Really, honestly, if you can pick up the whole deal for a significntly lower cost than starting up your own op, why wouldn't you? Do you think BB gives a crap about integrating pilot lists?

Do you even know whats involved with getting an op like that off the ground? I was around the first time they brought the Q's into ewr. I was there to watch them run out of sim time doing 6-10 pilots a month. I was there when we didn't have parts inventory yet. When we didn't have a full mx staff that knew the plane. I was paired with a check airman that had 15 hours in type.

Untill you have been though that mess, it seems "easy" trust me, the easy answer is not to do it if there is no need.
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Republic already has the Q400 on it's certificate and an entire program with furloughed Q400 pilots (Lynx). Also, Republic can work with the FAA to obtain approval to provide a "differences" sort of course for current Colgan Q400 pilots hired into Republic with a reduced training footprint. This was done by Colgan in 2005 for Chicago Express pilots on the Saab 340. Reduced sim/ground school.

The Colgan certificate is seen as Voodoo these days.
 
SigShooter said:
The Colgan certificate is seen as Voodoo these days.
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The name yes... certificate, no... but once again, the "pilots" are only a small portion of the operation. reduced training footprint, sure. Where do you propose they fix these airplanes? who is going to fix the planes? where are the parts coming from to fix them?

The lynx planes are missing a significant amount of mod lines, updates, and supplements vs. the 9l planes. Do you think RAH wants to buy spare HYD pumps at $350k ea when they can get them with the planes? Do they want to go buy a few sets of spare leading edges so they can swap out boots that the Q chews up, or aquire them with the planes?

How many pilots are furloughed (lynx) still? if they can't fill a NH class, im guessing not many are around still? reduced sim and ground school is fine. We already do it. you get 6 sims, not 8. I'm going to be honest, and say with the history of this plane, the FAA isn't going to reduce training req's/ we already have to run nearly 2x the normal IOE for transition upgrades etc.

why do you think RAH would be so hell bent on doing it ew from scratch, when they can get the whole thing in a neat little package? Where is the benefit? What do they gain by not taking the whole op?

final note, PNCL is in ch.11... as best i recall, shareholders get a say in the procedings. Do you think they would be happy returning al the planes, and dropping a certificate with no return on investment? I'd be pretty pissed is spanjers decided that the entire 9l op wasn't worth anything and just folded it up and absorbed the costs.
 
Come on dude, the 9L Certificate is a joke. We had horrible management, horrible MX, horrible operations, horrible training, horrible manuals, horrible FSDO, and the certificate has blood on its hands because of the HEF/MEM Management Marriage. I can keep going on and on how, but I am sure you get the point. :)

They are going to dump the 9L Certificate like I drop a dump in the morning (usually while on the phone with amorris311) and just be done with it. Then the new leaders of 'Pinnacle Corp' are going to drop the PCL Certificate in the chapter 11, move back up to MSP, and reinstate the Mesaba Certificate. Mesaba will be the surviving name when all is said and done on their, the Mesaba certificate.

That is right, I said it, the Pinnacle Certificate won't even be around much longer as well.
 
Rather irrelevant, but what do they plan to do with the Q400's that were outfitted with First Class? I always enjoyed commuting on Colgan, when I got lucky enough to hitch a ride on one that had First Class.
 
TUCKnTRUCK said:
The lynx planes are missing a significant amount of mod lines, updates, and supplements vs. the 9l planes. Do you think RAH wants to buy spare HYD pumps at $350k ea when they can get them with the planes? Do they want to go buy a few sets of spare leading edges so they can swap out boots that the Q chews up, or aquire them with the planes?
Click to expand...

If I remember correctly, CJC doesn't even own those parts as they were so highly leveraged against themselves.
 
cmhumphr said:
Rather irrelevant, but what do they plan to do with the Q400's that were outfitted with First Class? I always enjoyed commuting on Colgan, when I got lucky enough to hitch a ride on one that had First Class.
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United owns the seats... i'd assume the would finish the job.. or revert.
 
Yes, I would say vs. Lynx they were better by a lot. They were being controlled by Frontier.

For an example we had outstation basing on the Q when it first started because those running this place didn't know better! Furthermore, take a look at the profile changes we needed when we started going into MTJ and where those profile changes came from. The profiles we had prior to the changes would have put another plane into the ground if poo hit the fan.
 
TUCKnTRUCK said:
The name yes... certificate, no... but once again, the "pilots" are only a small portion of the operation. reduced training footprint, sure. Where do you propose they fix these airplanes? who is going to fix the planes? where are the parts coming from to fix them?

The lynx planes are missing a significant amount of mod lines, updates, and supplements vs. the 9l planes. Do you think RAH wants to buy spare HYD pumps at $350k ea when they can get them with the planes? Do they want to go buy a few sets of spare leading edges so they can swap out boots that the Q chews up, or aquire them with the planes?

How many pilots are furloughed (lynx) still? if they can't fill a NH class, im guessing not many are around still? reduced sim and ground school is fine. We already do it. you get 6 sims, not 8. I'm going to be honest, and say with the history of this plane, the FAA isn't going to reduce training req's/ we already have to run nearly 2x the normal IOE for transition upgrades etc.

why do you think RAH would be so hell bent on doing it ew from scratch, when they can get the whole thing in a neat little package? Where is the benefit? What do they gain by not taking the whole op?

final note, PNCL is in ch.11... as best i recall, shareholders get a say in the procedings. Do you think they would be happy returning al the planes, and dropping a certificate with no return on investment? I'd be pretty pissed is spanjers decided that the entire 9l op wasn't worth anything and just folded it up and absorbed the costs.
Click to expand...


Taking the whole 9L certificate actually will complicate the transition. Why would Republic want to deal with all the CBA labor issues when they already have all the opspecs required? They already have approved manuals, mx programs, training programs etc. They still have Q400 Mx. The foundation is already in place.....

This Republic Q400 UAX deal has been in the works since Colgan tried to up the CPA rates with UAX months ago. It may appear Pinnacle decided to end the Q400 program in bankrupcy but the Q400 program was DOA prior to the filing per United. United worked out a deal with Pinnacle where Q400 assets would be transferred to another UAX carrier of UAs choosing.

Regarding shareholders, history holds the answers to your questions. I agree with you it makes sense the certificate would be auctioned off it it's just not the case. Something is only worth what someone is willing to pay and Republic just doesn't have any need for the certificate. Since UA already made a deal with Pinnacle and Republic, you won't see someone else come in and outbid UA/Republic for Colgan Q400 assets.

Don't worry, Republic will get all the modsums the Colgan airplanes come with.

The regional business is cutt throat, i feel for all the Colgan pilots who are getting the shaft.....
 
SigShooter said:
United worked out a deal with Pinnacle where -Q400 assets would be transferred to another UAX carrier of UAs choosing. -
.....
Click to expand...
triggering the jcba fragmentation language.

They have Q MX in den yes... One of 3 bases.

Seggy did you ever get in a lynx bird? I climbed in one in YYZ... I'm not sure they were "better"
 
TUCKnTRUCK said:
triggering the jcba fragmentation language.

They have Q MX in den yes... One of 3 bases.

Seggy did you ever get in a lynx bird? I climbed in one in YYZ... I'm not sure they were "better"
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I doubt the jcba frag will apply. Assets won't be transferred directly. Assets will be returned to lien holders who will have a new deal in place with Republic.

Colgan Q400s have a better cabin than lynx for sure but i think Lynx always had better completition stats than Colgan. Lynx mx were experienced DHC8 operators (ex Mesa DHC8).
 
SigShooter said:
I doubt the jcba frag will apply. Assets won't be transferred directly. Assets will be returned to lien holders who will have a new deal in place with Republic.

Colgan Q400s have a better cabin than lynx for sure but i think Lynx always had better completition stats than Colgan. Lynx mx were experienced DHC8 operators (ex Mesa DHC8).
Click to expand...
lynx had significantly lower utilization than Colgan. Colgan lead the Q operators in 2010 by a fair amount... The Colgan q frequently had months with 99%+ controllable.

The one I poked around in, was, torn up. The sky service guy tearing it apart for retrofit said it was a mess.. Was 2 weeks beyond projected date still waiting on parts.

Lynx paid for the fancy stuff up front, but didn't keep up with it. Fuel oil exchanger valves, seat mods, supplements, the "non hardened" compressors, pre mod apu's. Etc. I don't believe they were the enhanced high gross versions either.

If the asset transfer is too transparent, the union can, ( and I'm guessing Bc it's RAH) would make a case.
 
, i feel for all the Colgan pilots who are getting the shaft.....
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it's not just cjc guys getting the shaft, how about the junior PCL or MSA guys? Lotta shaft being thrown around...
Next 5 years will be "transitional" in nature. Hopefully there will be fewer 1/2 @$$ airlines when the dust settles
 
Well, TucknTruck isn't the only one throwing the planes with pilots idea out there. Noble idea, but just isn't realistic and isn't going to happen. Unfortunate situation but that is the nature of the beast. This is just the beginning. Several more regionals will collapse before the sector stabilizes

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