naunga
New Member
In reading several posts here about people becoming disillusioned with flying as a career I got to observing the type of people that I know personally who enjoyed their flying careers.
I've determined that most of these people would have been happy doing any job that...
A) Gave them clearly defined goals (i.e. fly from ATL to CLE)
B) Gives them some responsibility
C) Allowed them to work with little supervision (i.e. no boss looking over your shoulder every 5 minutes)
D) Put them in contact with interesting and intelligent people.
E) Let them play with cool toys (i.e. an airplane)
A couple pilots here fit this profile. Doug for example said that he'd love to be a webdesigner / programmer type. IT is a field that give you A, C (depending on who you work for), D, and E right off the bat. B comes a little later as you move up the later or right away if you're self employed.
Eagle before he left was in the Coast Guard. A navigator I believe. Again being a navigator gives you A, B, C,and E. Being in the CG most likely gives you D.
People who would like to have a job that gives them these 5 things probably will be very happy as pilots.
Now, a lot of people have been complaining about the money etc. Well, let me address that. I'm probably going to say something very unpopular, but life goes on.
A lot of the people complaing about the pay etc. are quite young, and perhaps haven't had the chance to build a solid financial base. I also think that maybe one of the things that FSI, PanAm, DCA, ERAU, etc don't give all you aspiring pilots is a course in basic money mangement. You know something that requires you to sit down and try to make a budget living on $17K a year, before you absolutely have to. Mav said something to the effect that being a pilot was only for people who were fresh out of college and not accustomed to paying bills. As I responded to him I think he's wrong. If I someone in high school came to me and said, "I want to be a pilot" my advice, based on reading posts on this board and pilots I've talked with, would be: Go to college, get a degree in something non-aviation, work on your flight training in your free time, graduate, get a job that's not aviation related, save up some cash, and then go to someplace like FSI.
Why? Here's why...
The typical 23 year old college grad is not prepared to live on their own, nor are they ready to be owned by their employer. It's quite a shock to find that you can't just pick up and go out with your friends whenever you want. It's also a shock when your boss just doesn't care why you missed your deadlines, and does not feel compeled to give you a second chance, unless you've already proven yourself to be a valuable asset. Couple that with trying to live on low pay and having to be away from home half the month, it's just very difficult. I know I had a hard enough time trying to live the first couple years on $30K a year with set hours. I can't imagine trying to live on $17 or less on totally screwed up hours (unless of course I had a spouse making a ton of cash).
I find it very interesting that most professional type education programs require some kind of work experience beyond a college degree (MBA, vet, and some cullinary schools come to mind immediately), but flight schools don't. Most flight schools don't even require a college degree even though the airlines do.
The airlines require degrees for three reasons, in my opinion:
1. They want someone who is smart enough to operate complex equipment.
2. They want someone who has proven that they can learn a lot of material
3. They want to know that you know how to manage your time and can complete a task on time.
The unfortunate part of this is that simply getting a 4 year degree doesn't prove all that. I'm sure that those of us who have college degrees remember at least one person who simply floated through school. Took easy courses, barely ever cracked a book, etc. These people got that piece of paper yes, but how much did they learn? Do you think they would show up for class to learn about something? Would you trust them to fly a CRJ with you and your family on it? No way.
They lack the maturity of someone who had spent time in the working world.
We all talk about how to be competitive. How do we make our resumes standout? How many hours make us look good? What should I get my degree in? If you ask me, it has nothing to do with hours etc. it has to do with maturity, and not this juvenile notion of maturity. It's not about dressing differently or giving up cartoons etc. It's about at the end of the day can you be counted on to get the job done. College degrees don't prove that. Hours in a logbook don't prove that. Being asked to do a job and doing it consistently proves that, and you only get that from solid work experience. Not flipping burgers, and not fueling planes. It comes from managing the restaurant, from managing the FBO, from working the helpdesk and being the "top gun". It comes from being the goto analyst that your manger knows will get that report done in a day that would take anyone else 3 days.
I hate to say it, but I firmly believe that if you guys end up competing for a pilot position against an older person who has spent the last 6 years in a job that requires a 4 year degree, you're probably not going to get the job.
Why? How can I say something so mean? Well, let's face it this is reality. Reality isn't "you won't make enough money", it's not "you'll work for unreasonable bosses as a pilot". This is reality: Airlines are businesses. People tend to forget that when they speak about working for them someday. The older guy sitting next to you in the interview has probably already gotten over having to work late, not making enough money, forgetting about tasks because he was out "blowing off steam". He's grown up. He's realized that every boss is going to be unreasonable at some point, and he's realized what the airlines are looking for. High returns, low investment. This guy is going to go into that interview and know how to deal with corporate suits. He going to know how to control a meeting. He's going to give the right answers and ask the right questions. For you youngin' reading this, he's a quiz for you: I'm interviewing you for a job at a regional. I ask the typical, "where do you see yourself in 5 years?" What's the first answer that popped into your head? Was it, something like, "Well, hopefully after 5 years I hope have upgraded to captain, and if I'm really lucky maybe a FO position at a major?" I could be wrong, but I suspect that this is the answer that a lot of you thought of.
The guy who's "been there done that" is going to say something like, "In 5 years I see myself working here as a captain. Maybe looking forward toward a chief pilot position or maybe doing something with new pilot training." BAM! That guy just won major points. The suits on the other side are probably slightly drooling at this point. The can train one pilot and he has a good chance of being with them for 25 years. Whereas the younger guy may jump ship after 5 years or so, which means they have to train another pilot.
What's wrong with ambition? Well nothing, but the first guy's answer basically sounded like this to the suits: "Yeah, I'm just going to stay here long enough to build my hours and then jump into a FO position at a major at the first opportunity." The second guy may actually be planning to do that, but you don't let the suits in on that. The suits (note the suits are the guys who sign the checks etc. not the pilot who will be in the interview with them) want to see that you have ambition, but that your goals include continued employement with them. It's cheaper for them that way.
People get starry eyed and think working for the airlines is all kittens and rainbows. In fact part of the problem is that a lot of aspiring pilots don't even use the words work and airlines in the same sentence. You see things like, "I hope to fly for Delta" or "I hope to be a pilot with ASA". Those statements IMHO have a different connotation than, "I hope to work for Delta" or "I hope to work as a pilot for ASA". Eventually these people find out working for an airline isn't all kittens and rainbows, and they look to other things, like realty or IT, and then it's all kittens and rainbows again. Until people come to the realization that these companies don't exist to fufill your dreams and help you achive nirvana no job is going to make these people happy.
My point in this long ass post is that working for an airline is still a job. There will be good and bad. The posts by EatSleepFly and Mavmb really showcase the bad. EatSleepFly plans to stick with it and Mavmb doesn't. Which is fine, but we spend some much time here talking about our "dream job" and we tend to focus on the dream part and not the job part. There also tend to be a lot of young people who want to hear the bad, but it's always presented in such black and white terms that it can almost be ignored. Yeah big deal so guy went off on a rant about working long hours etc. That guy sounds like a big whiner (no offense ESF), and it can't be that bad. Well he's the fact of the matter: yes in some jobs it is that bad. Regardless of who you are. Anyhow, this was just some observations I've made lately.
Take it or leave it.
Naunga
I've determined that most of these people would have been happy doing any job that...
A) Gave them clearly defined goals (i.e. fly from ATL to CLE)
B) Gives them some responsibility
C) Allowed them to work with little supervision (i.e. no boss looking over your shoulder every 5 minutes)
D) Put them in contact with interesting and intelligent people.
E) Let them play with cool toys (i.e. an airplane)
A couple pilots here fit this profile. Doug for example said that he'd love to be a webdesigner / programmer type. IT is a field that give you A, C (depending on who you work for), D, and E right off the bat. B comes a little later as you move up the later or right away if you're self employed.
Eagle before he left was in the Coast Guard. A navigator I believe. Again being a navigator gives you A, B, C,and E. Being in the CG most likely gives you D.
People who would like to have a job that gives them these 5 things probably will be very happy as pilots.
Now, a lot of people have been complaining about the money etc. Well, let me address that. I'm probably going to say something very unpopular, but life goes on.
A lot of the people complaing about the pay etc. are quite young, and perhaps haven't had the chance to build a solid financial base. I also think that maybe one of the things that FSI, PanAm, DCA, ERAU, etc don't give all you aspiring pilots is a course in basic money mangement. You know something that requires you to sit down and try to make a budget living on $17K a year, before you absolutely have to. Mav said something to the effect that being a pilot was only for people who were fresh out of college and not accustomed to paying bills. As I responded to him I think he's wrong. If I someone in high school came to me and said, "I want to be a pilot" my advice, based on reading posts on this board and pilots I've talked with, would be: Go to college, get a degree in something non-aviation, work on your flight training in your free time, graduate, get a job that's not aviation related, save up some cash, and then go to someplace like FSI.
Why? Here's why...
The typical 23 year old college grad is not prepared to live on their own, nor are they ready to be owned by their employer. It's quite a shock to find that you can't just pick up and go out with your friends whenever you want. It's also a shock when your boss just doesn't care why you missed your deadlines, and does not feel compeled to give you a second chance, unless you've already proven yourself to be a valuable asset. Couple that with trying to live on low pay and having to be away from home half the month, it's just very difficult. I know I had a hard enough time trying to live the first couple years on $30K a year with set hours. I can't imagine trying to live on $17 or less on totally screwed up hours (unless of course I had a spouse making a ton of cash).
I find it very interesting that most professional type education programs require some kind of work experience beyond a college degree (MBA, vet, and some cullinary schools come to mind immediately), but flight schools don't. Most flight schools don't even require a college degree even though the airlines do.
The airlines require degrees for three reasons, in my opinion:
1. They want someone who is smart enough to operate complex equipment.
2. They want someone who has proven that they can learn a lot of material
3. They want to know that you know how to manage your time and can complete a task on time.
The unfortunate part of this is that simply getting a 4 year degree doesn't prove all that. I'm sure that those of us who have college degrees remember at least one person who simply floated through school. Took easy courses, barely ever cracked a book, etc. These people got that piece of paper yes, but how much did they learn? Do you think they would show up for class to learn about something? Would you trust them to fly a CRJ with you and your family on it? No way.
They lack the maturity of someone who had spent time in the working world.
We all talk about how to be competitive. How do we make our resumes standout? How many hours make us look good? What should I get my degree in? If you ask me, it has nothing to do with hours etc. it has to do with maturity, and not this juvenile notion of maturity. It's not about dressing differently or giving up cartoons etc. It's about at the end of the day can you be counted on to get the job done. College degrees don't prove that. Hours in a logbook don't prove that. Being asked to do a job and doing it consistently proves that, and you only get that from solid work experience. Not flipping burgers, and not fueling planes. It comes from managing the restaurant, from managing the FBO, from working the helpdesk and being the "top gun". It comes from being the goto analyst that your manger knows will get that report done in a day that would take anyone else 3 days.
I hate to say it, but I firmly believe that if you guys end up competing for a pilot position against an older person who has spent the last 6 years in a job that requires a 4 year degree, you're probably not going to get the job.
Why? How can I say something so mean? Well, let's face it this is reality. Reality isn't "you won't make enough money", it's not "you'll work for unreasonable bosses as a pilot". This is reality: Airlines are businesses. People tend to forget that when they speak about working for them someday. The older guy sitting next to you in the interview has probably already gotten over having to work late, not making enough money, forgetting about tasks because he was out "blowing off steam". He's grown up. He's realized that every boss is going to be unreasonable at some point, and he's realized what the airlines are looking for. High returns, low investment. This guy is going to go into that interview and know how to deal with corporate suits. He going to know how to control a meeting. He's going to give the right answers and ask the right questions. For you youngin' reading this, he's a quiz for you: I'm interviewing you for a job at a regional. I ask the typical, "where do you see yourself in 5 years?" What's the first answer that popped into your head? Was it, something like, "Well, hopefully after 5 years I hope have upgraded to captain, and if I'm really lucky maybe a FO position at a major?" I could be wrong, but I suspect that this is the answer that a lot of you thought of.
The guy who's "been there done that" is going to say something like, "In 5 years I see myself working here as a captain. Maybe looking forward toward a chief pilot position or maybe doing something with new pilot training." BAM! That guy just won major points. The suits on the other side are probably slightly drooling at this point. The can train one pilot and he has a good chance of being with them for 25 years. Whereas the younger guy may jump ship after 5 years or so, which means they have to train another pilot.
What's wrong with ambition? Well nothing, but the first guy's answer basically sounded like this to the suits: "Yeah, I'm just going to stay here long enough to build my hours and then jump into a FO position at a major at the first opportunity." The second guy may actually be planning to do that, but you don't let the suits in on that. The suits (note the suits are the guys who sign the checks etc. not the pilot who will be in the interview with them) want to see that you have ambition, but that your goals include continued employement with them. It's cheaper for them that way.
People get starry eyed and think working for the airlines is all kittens and rainbows. In fact part of the problem is that a lot of aspiring pilots don't even use the words work and airlines in the same sentence. You see things like, "I hope to fly for Delta" or "I hope to be a pilot with ASA". Those statements IMHO have a different connotation than, "I hope to work for Delta" or "I hope to work as a pilot for ASA". Eventually these people find out working for an airline isn't all kittens and rainbows, and they look to other things, like realty or IT, and then it's all kittens and rainbows again. Until people come to the realization that these companies don't exist to fufill your dreams and help you achive nirvana no job is going to make these people happy.
My point in this long ass post is that working for an airline is still a job. There will be good and bad. The posts by EatSleepFly and Mavmb really showcase the bad. EatSleepFly plans to stick with it and Mavmb doesn't. Which is fine, but we spend some much time here talking about our "dream job" and we tend to focus on the dream part and not the job part. There also tend to be a lot of young people who want to hear the bad, but it's always presented in such black and white terms that it can almost be ignored. Yeah big deal so guy went off on a rant about working long hours etc. That guy sounds like a big whiner (no offense ESF), and it can't be that bad. Well he's the fact of the matter: yes in some jobs it is that bad. Regardless of who you are. Anyhow, this was just some observations I've made lately.
Take it or leave it.
Naunga
