American asks bankruptcy court to reject labor contracts

[NewsBot]

American Airlines (AA) has filed a motion with a US bankruptcy court seeking to have its contracts with three unions representing nine work groups terminated, saying that its "greatest single challenge" is labor agreements that are unfavorable compared with those of its competitors.

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[Speed Pilot]

Well there it is. We all knew it was coming.

 

[Maurus]

I think we need to shoot the messenger.

 

[mrivc211]

You've got captains on 75/76 maxed out making 160k a year and FO's at 90k. How the F is that not competitive. AA mgmt can kiss it

 

[Screaming_Emu]

What is the point of a contract if someone (either side) can simply ask to not have to follow it anymore because its inconvenient. If you can't survive with it, you shouldn't have agreed to it in the first place.

 

[wheelsup]

You've got captains on 75/76 maxed out making 160k a year and FO's at 90k. How the F is that not competitive. AA mgmt can kiss it

Plus pension costs. I recently did the math and at my $75/hr I'm costing my employer $185/hr roughly for every flight hour I work (just round numbers). That is without a pension. My guess is that $160/hr CA is really akin to a Delta guy making $250/hr maybe if not more with that pension cost.

On a side note I find it depressing that a maxed out FO at AA only makes $90k. Basically chump change in todays environment of $4/gas and $3-$4 loafs of bread.

 

[wheelsup]

What is the point of a contract if someone (either side) can simply ask to not have to follow it anymore because its inconvenient. If you can't survive with it, you shouldn't have agreed to it in the first place.

Playing devil's advocate, do you seriously believe the environment is the same as when American signed that contract?

The alternative is those guys losing their jobs completely when the company goes TU. What's better for them? Make $160k/$90k or make unemployment?

 

[Boris Badenov]

Playing devil's advocate, do you seriously believe the environment is the same as when American signed that contract?

The alternative is those guys losing their jobs completely when the company goes TU. What's better for them? Make $160k/$90k or make unemployment?

That's slavespeak. Either contracts mean something, or they don't. If they don't, it's the wild west and the rule of law is a joke. Contracts are at the very heart of Law. Now I would argue that contracts haven't been worth the paper they're printed on for decades, but I'm glad to see that this is becoming public knowledge.

 

[jtrain609]

Playing devil's advocate, do you seriously believe the environment is the same as when American signed that contract?

The alternative is those guys losing their jobs completely when the company goes TU. What's better for them? Make $160k/$90k or make unemployment?

You're working against yourself with this argument. When you combine inflation, they're making even LESS than it looks like on paper. The price of goods have gone up AND wages have gone down ALL WHILE the wealth gap has expanded.

Or here, let me put it a little better:

 

[wheelsup]

You're working against yourself with this argument. When you combine inflation, they're making even LESS than it looks like on paper. The price of goods have gone up AND wages have gone down ALL WHILE the wealth gap has expanded.

Or here, let me put it a little better:

I'm not working against myself at all. My point is that $90k is nothing these days especially for someone at the peak of their career. Your pretty picture did nothing to add to the conversation.

 

[jtrain609]

Plus pension costs. I recently did the math and at my $75/hr I'm costing my employer $185/hr roughly for every flight hour I work (just round numbers). That is without a pension. My guess is that $160/hr CA is really akin to a Delta guy making $250/hr maybe if not more with that pension cost.

On a side note I find it depressing that a maxed out FO at AA only makes $90k. Basically chump change in todays environment of $4/gas and $3-$4 loafs of bread.

Except that pensions are getting stripped away like undergarments on a Friday night at Deja Vu, which is to say that they weren't worth much to begin with, and are even worse now that you can see what you've got in front of you.

 

[wheelsup]

That's slavespeak. Either contracts mean something, or they don't. If they don't, it's the wild west and the rule of law is a joke. Contracts are at the very heart of Law. Now I would argue that contracts haven't been worth the paper they're printed on for decades, but I'm glad to see that this is becoming public knowledge.

Of course it's "slavespeak", but the options are very real, unfortunately.

 

[jtrain609]

I'm not working against myself at all. My point is that $90k is nothing these days especially for someone at the peak of their career. Your pretty picture did nothing to add to the conversation.

It sounds to me like you're justifying the destruction of these contracts, working conditions and pay rates. Am I reading you wrong?

 

[jtrain609]

Of course it's "slavespeak", but the options are very real, unfortunately.

Yes. They are.

 

[wheelsup]

Except that pensions are getting stripped away like undergarments on a Friday night at Deja Vu, which is to say that they weren't worth much to begin with, and are even worse now that you can see what you've got in front of you.

Again added nothing. Mirv looked at just the pay rate when the underlying costs are significantly higher.

 

[wheelsup]

It sounds to me like you're justifying the destruction of these contracts, working conditions and pay rates. Am I reading you wrong?

I think you guys need to let it go. Every other airline has already done this. The cat is out of the bag.

This is going to hurt, but we pilots aren't worth what we think we are. The unions have artificially inflated the high end pay rates at the expense of the low end pay rates.

Demand is weak for the airlines nowadays, back when UAL and DAL and AA contracts were signed with huge pay rates they were adding aircraft hand over fist.

Now they are cutting 2-3% per year.

 

[Boris Badenov]

The notion that there's some value that "pilots are worth" is idiocy. Pilots are "worth" what they sell their labor for. The negotiation that sets this rate is predicated upon Law, under which agreements are binding. The problem is that agreements aren't binding in our 21st century neo-feudal kleptocracy. This problem is far bigger than how many zeros are at the end of my paycheck, it is, with no exaggeration, the heart of civilization. It's the reason we have government...to see to it that people are held to their word. Abandon that, and it's Mad Max or Feudalism. That's not a choice I want to make, and if you're even a D- student of history, you don't want to, either.

 

[Screaming_Emu]

Playing devil's advocate, do you seriously believe the environment is the same as when American signed that contract?

The alternative is those guys losing their jobs completely when the company goes TU. What's better for them? Make $160k/$90k or make unemployment?

Then they should have made the contract amendable sooner so they could account for changing industry conditions.

 

[jtrain609]

Then they should have made the contract amendable sooner so they could account for changing industry conditions.

"But they couldn't! The union wouldn't agree to it! The greedy greedy union has done EVERYTHING bad in the history of ever! The union actually tied up management, away from their yachts and caviar for DAYS in negotiations because they were GREEDY! JEALOUS of the things that management WORKED for by being in management and doing managerial things! If those pilots weren't so busy STEALING from our pockets, maybe we could get some WORK done here. Work like pushing papers and making decisions on how many inches to put between seats. That's WORK! And those pilots complain about 16 hour days, reduced rest overnights, and a 300% reduction in wages over the past 20 years. What do THEY know about work!"

 

[Boris Badenov]

Train. If you're serious about changing our ludicrously corrupt system, don't play in to the hands of those who set us against each other by talking about how unfair and crappy it is for us. Because that's everyone under the sun who's under the Consummerate Buereau. The people sipping martinis and bragging about what they've "done" (although they've never worked a day in their lives) absolutely applaud when the "my life sucks more" game gets started.

Clear rules that exhibit Principle rather than mobbish idiocy. Transparency. Justice. And above all LAW that applies to everyone. These are the only ways to improve. Equality will inevitably follow, IMHO, but equality isn't the goal. Fairness and Law are.