American Airlines is a Gold Sponsor for the RTAG Convention

[CFIT99]

If you can fly a flying death contraption called a helicopter, I can’t see why you couldn’t fly a video game RJ.

Flew with a CA that was in the 160th SOAR Nightstalkers…stories of him at treetop level, at night with NVGs with RPG’s flying but the coupled ILS visual in light winds is “ too difficult”…there isn’t a meme out there that can express my reaction!

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

Flew with a CA that was in the 160th SOAR Nightstalkers…stories of him at treetop level, at night with NVGs with RPG’s flying but the coupled ILS visual in light winds is “ too difficult”…there isn’t a meme out there that can express my reaction!

Oh no doubt.

Although only 3 yrs as CA now, I have seen guys who have impressive quals in a background (eg, 20 yr Skywest checkairman, a 20 yr AF guy off fighter jets, a C130 guy deployed across the world) and yet on the 320/737, couldn’t maintain centerline on takeoff. Or landing. Or manage energy. And in one case, even just flying period.

 

[Ian_J]

Oh no doubt.

Although only 3 yrs as CA now, I have seen guys who have impressive quals in a background (eg, 20 yr Skywest checkairman, a 20 yr AF guy off fighter jets, a C130 guy deployed across the world) and yet on the 320/737, couldn’t maintain centerline on takeoff. Or landing. Or manage energy. And in one case, even just flying period.

No doubt. We’ve all had bad days. You were a terrible FO some days. As was I. I’ve seen guys who have done 121 since age 21 and just suck at it. But that doesn’t mean a thing for the demographic as a whole.

But now that I think about it, it must feel so very good for insecure pilots to watch a fighter pilot or a night stalker screw something up. Makes you feel very superior. Thing is, those dudes and dudettes have been through some absolutely brutally honest debriefs in their career. They are used to failing and getting better because of it. They have taken verbal s*it like no 121 pilot ever has. One thing going from military to 121 has taught me is that you will always suck at something new. In the 121 world you’ll rarely get a good critique from a fellow crewmember (they’ll usually just talk about it on a forum), so at least a military pilot has years of excruciating humility and self critiquing to fall back on.

 

[MikeD]

In terms of ability of rotary pilots when it comes to jets, it’s like anything else: you’ll get all kinds. And a lot of it has to do with background they come from airframe and/or community-wise, in terms of what they excel in. For Army guys, is an OH-58 guy going to have the same instrument skills and currency that a Chinook pilot has? No. As flying instruments isn’t in their mission set, and their birds are minimally capable. But they do possess the instrument knowledge even if their hands and scan may be a little rusty. Some pilots take a little longer to get the brain to think faster than 2 miles/minute when transitioning to a jet or a fast fixed wing. Some pilots may have other challenging areas that take a little longer to catch up than others. But as the Fav-man stated above, the culture they come from both of training and operational, and the debriefs and washout threat (for training side) that exists and that they’ve passed, creates a flexibility in learning and adapting that does have some good universal applications.

Is every helo pikot suited to be a jet pilot? No. Just as many good fixed wing pilots can’t grasp the hands and mind required to control a helicopter once it gets below 15-20 knots….and all the various aerodynamic phenomena that comes with rotary wing flight that one must know and know how to apply.

like anything, the answer is “it depends”. Depends on a wide range of factors.

 

[Ian_J]

In terms of ability of rotary pilots when it comes to jets, it’s like anything else: you’ll get all kinds. And a lot of it has to do with background they come from airframe and/or community-wise, in terms of what they excel in. For Army guys, is an OH-58 guy going to have the same instrument skills and currency that a Chinook pilot has? No. As flying instruments isn’t in their mission set, and their birds are minimally capable. But they do possess the instrument knowledge even if they hands and scan may be a little rusty. Some pilots take a little longer to get the brain to think faster than 2 miles/minute when transitioning to a jet or a fast fixed wing. Some pilots may have other challenging areas that take a little longer to catch up than others. But as the Fav-man stated above, the culture they come from both of training and operational, and the debriefs and washout threat (for training side) that exists and that they’ve passed, creates a flexibility in learning and adapting that does have some good universal applications.

Is every helo pikot suited to be a jet pilot? No. Just as many good fixed wing pilots can’t grasp the hands and mind required to control a helicopter once it gets below 15-20 knots….and all the various aerodynamic phenomena that comes with rotary wing flight that one must know and know how to apply.

like anything, the answer is “it depends”. Depends on a wide range of factors.

Yup. And the “it depends” extends easily to AF and Navy fighter/bomber/transport bubbas. Some just can’t do the transition well. Most do fine. Many do fine over time. A select few just can’t let “it” go and you know what I mean.

Ah nuts, now I’m with @Dacuj. College kids going through a sterile program definitely know a lot more about decision making. Seriously though, the regionals are a training ground. They shouldn’t be, but they are. Pilots who have never done 135 flying, military flying, or a few other types just have never been out there out on the edge of the decision making matrix. A regional captain gets that experience and a college “cadet” will eventually get that opportunity. And full disclosure, I’m a product of that training ground. The 500-1000 turbine FW experience majors want of military pilots isn’t a bad idea. In fact, I’d be on board with forcing the AF/Navy FW bubbas to do a year in the minors before moving up just for seasoning.

 

[roundout]

I have a WHOLE lot of time over at the schoolhouse

Remedial training? FOCUS training, I think they used to call it at the Voy?

 

[Low_Level_Hell]

Yup. And the “it depends” extends easily to AF and Navy fighter/bomber/transport bubbas. Some just can’t do the transition well. Most do fine. Many do fine over time. A select few just can’t let “it” go and you know what I mean.

Ah nuts, now I’m with @Dacuj. College kids going through a sterile program definitely know a lot more about decision making. Seriously though, the regionals are a training ground. They shouldn’t be, but they are. Pilots who have never done 135 flying, military flying, or a few other types just have never been out there out on the edge of the decision making matrix. A regional captain gets that experience and a college “cadet” will eventually get that opportunity. And full disclosure, I’m a product of that training ground. The 500-1000 turbine FW experience majors want of military pilots isn’t a bad idea. In fact, I’d be on board with forcing the AF/Navy FW bubbas to do a year in the minors before moving up just for seasoning.

The only reason I didn’t want to say Dacuj was probably correct in is statement that all being equal, pilots that went through a cadet program are probably better prepared than a military rotor guy for 121 is that I was afraid that you would print off my avatar and use it as a dart board.
However like I said earlier, it doesn’t really matter because I think due the restricted ATP hour requirement the airlines want military rotor guys because they are available and cost effective means of filling seats.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

No doubt. We’ve all had bad days. You were a terrible FO some days. As was I. I’ve seen guys who have done 121 since age 21 and just suck at it. But that doesn’t mean a thing for the demographic as a whole.

But now that I think about it, it must feel so very good for insecure pilots to watch a fighter pilot or a night stalker screw something up. Makes you feel very superior. Thing is, those dudes and dudettes have been through some absolutely brutally honest debriefs in their career. They are used to failing and getting better because of it. They have taken verbal s*it like no 121 pilot ever has. One thing going from military to 121 has taught me is that you will always suck at something new. In the 121 world you’ll rarely get a good critique from a fellow crewmember (they’ll usually just talk about it on a forum), so at least a military pilot has years of excruciating humility and self critiquing to fall back on.

I actually love military guys. They know what they don’t know and don’t really hide that. The are open to input. And as a younger CA, I’ve seen military guys have NO issue with someone younger than them being in command. None. I guess they are used to different ranks, planes, and order, so they know the deal. OTOH, I’ve had (some) civilian guys where you can see they have an issue with a CA being 20 yrs younger than them. Small dynamic, but noticeable nonetheless. The worst are those who will then try to play right seat CA.

I should have prefaced by saying it was really only those two guys I mentioned in my story that were like that. By far the rest of the military guys have been excellent guys, willing to learn the 121 world and humble.

 

[roundout]

I actually love military guys. They know what they don’t know and don’t really hide that. The are open to input. And as a younger CA, I’ve seen military guys have NO issue with someone younger than them being in command. None. I guess they are used to different ranks, planes, and order, so they know the deal. OTOH, I’ve had (some) civilian guys where you can see they have an issue with a CA being 20 yrs younger than them. Small dynamic, but noticeable nonetheless. The worst are those who will then try to play right seat CA.

Totally. I get 3.5 striped more often by corporate guys and young hotshots. I've never been 3.5 striped by any of the military people I've flown with. They are also quicker to ask for help with something they're not sure about or that they want clarification on. I've not met a single military pilot at my place with an attitude problem, and I've flown with helo people, fighter jocks, and cargo people. Even when I'm the 30 something newer CA and they just got out after 20 years.

 

[mikecweb]

I actually love military guys.

Sorry @Maximilian_Jenius

 

[BigZ]

It’s interesting you say this.

The best pilot in my new hire class at Eagle was a Black Hawk guy. And our indoc and systems were taught by a guy who had flown helicopters in Korea and Vietnam (he’s still the best ground school instructor I’ve had).

Maybe they’ve changed, but eagle sure didn’t have a problem with rotorwing pilots when I was there.

No numbers on hand, if those even exist, but a substantial portion of the seniority list is rotorheads. Probably at least as many, if not more, than cadets. Both groups do just fine with the right attitude. Both groups have outliers with the wrong attitude. The usual.

 

[Autothrust Blue]

Is every helo pikot suited to be a jet pilot? No. Just as many good fixed wing pilots can’t grasp the hands and mind required to control a helicopter once it gets below 15-20 knots….and all the various aerodynamic phenomena that comes with rotary wing flight that one must know and know how to apply.

I think I might want to find out, myself, but I'm scared to death of actually liking it too much...and it is murderously expensive, last I looked.

One of my HS classmates thought she was going to do the fixed-wing thing, to the point of doing so in college for a bit, but instead she's having a blast flying helicopters off of a carrier.

 

[MikeD]

I think I might want to find out, myself, but I'm scared to death of actually liking it too much...and it is murderously expensive, last I looked.

One of my HS classmates thought she was going to do the fixed-wing thing, to the point of doing so in college for a bit, but instead she's having a blast flying helicopters off of a carrier.

even civilian helos are fun. Working in the gulf flying from mainland out to an oil rig 100 miles offshore in a single engine Jet Ranger.

 

[Low_Level_Hell]

even civilian helos are fun. Working in the gulf flying from mainland out to an oil rig 100 miles offshore in a single engine Jet Ranger.

Geez dude, is there any sector of the aviation industry you haven’t worked? I’m waiting for you to take a job on the Goodyear blimp or possibly the run pharma for the cartels.

 

[MikeD]

Geez dude, is there any sector of the aviation industry you haven’t worked? I’m waiting for you to take a job on the Goodyear blimp or possibly the run pharma for the cartels.

oh no that wasn’t me. That was one of my coworkers who worked that industry. I only took a ride with them once and marveled at how they do they job. My overwater time was all shipboard stuff and ocean rescue work with the AF Hawks. With much more redundancy than those guys have on the light helo side of the oil rig industry. I wouldn’t want to be tooling around out there in my junky Astar. I don’t even like the Astar for the patrol work I do now. MD520 or even 530, would be nice.

 

[Maximilian_Jenius]

I think I might want to find out, myself, but I'm scared to death of actually liking it too much... and it is murderously expensive, last I looked.

One of my HS classmates thought she was going to do the fixed-wing thing, to the point of doing so in college for a bit, but instead she's having a blast flying helicopters off of a carrier.

We had a small helicopter school at KOGD, it was around $300-500 an hour. NOPE!

 

[Lawman]

We had a small helicopter school at KOGD, it was around $300-500 an hour. NOPE!

Most people don’t understand that helicopters for the most part are turbine time. Its like you walked into a fight school and said “I’d like to learn to fly… in that” *points at the L-39 complete with camo and red-star*

It’s only recently stuff like the Robinsons have allowed for lower cost per hour helicopters to become popular. Even then unless all you want to do is fly Robinsons as an instructor, you’re going to find yourself paying for something sooner rather than later.


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