Altitude vs approach

Flyvne

Flyvne

New Member
We are at 4,000 feet on a 270 heading for landing....
Here is the scenario:

Approach: Air 123 turn left heading 220 intercept 19L LOC descend and maintain 3,000, report runway insight.


Pilot: (all that) and runway insight


Approach: Air 123 cleared for the visual 19L, contact tower.

Question: Do we have to descend to 3,000 feet or can we stay at 4,000 and descend at pilots discretion (with glide slope) since we were cleared for the visual? It is my understanding that if you are cleared for the visual with no altitude or heading instructions in the clearance, then you can do what you want (within FAR's and the like).
 
My understanding is when cleared for the visual everything else is out the window. If you want to stay at 4000 for some reason, you can. If they needed you at 3000, you might hear something like "Upon reaching 3000, cleared for the visual."
 
I disagree. I think if your assigned altitude was 3000, you need to decend to 3000 first and then you can decend at your discretion in accordance with a visual approach clearance. It's no different than if you were assigned FL240 from a high altitude controller, and your next clearance was "cross XXX at and maintain 11,000." As a controller I would expect you to reach FL240 first and then decend at your discretion to meet the restriction.

I don't know though, it's kind of a grey area. Approach controllers might see it differently. Would they care if you hung it up? Probably not. If they had traffic they wouldn't clear you for the visual so quickly - they'd separate you first.

It'd be more black and white if the controller gave you PD to 3000 before he cleared you for the visual. But if you were assigned 3000 first and then cleared the visual, strictly speaking, you are expected to comply with the altitude clearance first.
 
My take is that regardless, he expects you to be at or below 3000. Perhaps he is trying to work folks in above that altitude. Probably a moot point anyways though, since if you have the runway in sight my bet is that you would be leaving 4000 anyway.
 
As an approach controller I encounter this every single day. Most times I'm just trying to give you an uninterrupted descent and pointing out the airport.

Technically speaking once you are cleared for the visual approach the altitude and navigation to the airport become the pilot's discretion. Therefore, unless you're directed otherwise I would say that you could maintain any altitude you'd like.

That being said, I often add "Cleared Visual Approach RY35L, start a descent to at least 8 thousand." or something similar. If we're using altitude for separation I'm pretty sure we're required to restate it with an approach clearance.

You'd be right to disregard the altitude, but don't be shocked if some crusty old guy who doesn't know the rules yells at you for not descending...
 
Once issued a visual approach clearance, the pilot maintains there own terrain and obstacle clearance, therefor altitudes previously assigned are no longer valid unless... issued in the approach clearance (like an ILS clearance) and the pilot concurs.

ATC: Descend and maintain 3,000 report the field in sight 12 o'clock 25 miles.
Pilot: Fields in sight.
ATC: Cleard visual approach 19L.
Pilot: Cleared visual approach rwy 19L.
-Deletes all altitudes.

ATC: Descend and maintain 3,000 report the field in sight 12 o'clock 25 miles.
Pilots: Fields in sight
ATC: Cross FIXXX at 3,000 cleared visual approach rwy 19L.
Pilot: FIXXX at 3,000 cleared visual approach rwy 19L.
-The pilot is expected to cross FIXXX at 3,000 than descend visually to rwy 19L and if unable advise ATC.
 
:yeahthat:

Im not a controller, but i believe in that scenario, the only reason you're being restricted to 3,000 is because it part of the approach. Once you have the field in sight for the visual, its all up to you.
 
Working approach, if I gave a clearance to a pilot like that, I would expect a descent to 3000 then PD to the field.

I think the altitude rules on visual approach are intended to get a pilot LOWER than the last assigned altitude, not HIGHER than the last assigned altitude.

Aren't grey areas fun?!
 
Flyvne said:
We are at 4,000 feet on a 270 heading for landing....
Here is the scenario:

Approach: Air 123 turn left heading 220 intercept 19L LOC descend and maintain 3,000, report runway insight.


Pilot: (all that) and runway insight


Approach: Air 123 cleared for the visual 19L, contact tower.

Question: Do we have to descend to 3,000 feet or can we stay at 4,000 and descend at pilots discretion (with glide slope) since we were cleared for the visual? It is my understanding that if you are cleared for the visual with no altitude or heading instructions in the clearance, then you can do what you want (within FAR's and the like).
Click to expand...



If your plan was to intercept the glide slope of the Loc approach then I wouldn’t call "Runway in sight"
 
If you are cleared for the Visual Approach it is a NEW clearance that supersedes any previous clearance. Unless a crossing altitude or speed is specified in your Visual Approach clearance, you can descend however you like.
 
:yeahthat:

Once you've cleared me for a visual approach any altitude previously assigned is null and void. Normally I drop it right to pattern altitude. However, in aggravating places like EWR I'll usually keep whatever altitude I'm at until glideslope interecept just to remove some thought from the configuring process before then clicking everything off and flying raw data.
 
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