Allentown runway incursion...close one!

SteveC

Really?
Staff member
NTSB Press Release:

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NTSB ADVISORY
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National Transportation Safety Board
Washington, DC 20594

September 22, 2008

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NTSB INVESTIGATING RUNWAY INCURSION IN ALLENTOWN, PA.

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The National Transportation Safety Board is
investigating a runway incursion Friday evening in
Allentown, Pennsylvania involving a general aviation
aircraft and a Chicago-bound regional jet airliner.

At 7:45 p.m. on September 19, a Cessna R172K (N736GV)
was on a landing roll on runway 6 at the Lehigh Valley
International Airport when the pilot was instructed to exit
the runway at taxiway A4. Mesa Airlines flight 7138, a CRJ-
700 (N506MJ), already instructed to position and hold on the
same runway, was then given clearance by the same controller
to take off.

During the takeoff roll, the Mesa crew heard the
Cessna pilot say that he'd missed the taxiway A4 turnoff and
ask to exit at taxiway B. The Mesa crew saw the Cessna
ahead on the runway and aborted the takeoff at about 120
knots, swerving around the Cessna. The Mesa crew estimated
that they missed colliding with the Cessna by about 10 feet.

Night visual meteorological conditions prevailed, and
there were no reported injuries to the 60 persons aboard the
jet or those aboard the Cessna.
 

darrenf

resident denizen
Why the hell would a controller issue a takeoff clearance (at night, no less) with another aircraft on the runway??!!! :banghead:
 

Alpha Lima

New Member
No tower experience here but according to the book it sounds legal, assuming the 172 would have made the turn off. Without knowing all the details of exactly what happened its up to the investigators.

3-9-5. ANTICIPATING SEPARATION
Takeoff clearance needs not be withheld until
prescribed separation exists if there is a reasonable
assurance it will exist when the aircraft starts takeoff
roll.
REFERENCE-
P/CG Term- Clear of the Runway.
 

Nark

Macho Superpilot
My thoughts exactly.

I directly over fly SAN often and it's funny to watch the controller clear the traffic in position to takeoff, but the rollout traffic is taking there time, so the they ad:

"wwwwwwwwwwwwwwind 280 at _____________8 cleared for takeoff runwayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy 27.
 

v1valarob

Well-Known Member
It also works a bit better at high traffic airports where we understand that there is someone behind and we are all in one huge line. The Cessna probably had no clue as to what his actions would cause.

Im not pointing the blame at anyone. Just my opinion.
 
R

Roger, Roger

Guest
That's why when I go into airports like HOU and DAL I try to make sure my students understand the urgency of exiting the runway. I don't want to be the 172 that almost (or not almost!) gets run over by a CRJ.
 

KLB

Well-Known Member
That's why when I go into airports like HOU and DAL I try to make sure my students understand the urgency of exiting the runway. I don't want to be the 172 that almost (or not almost!) gets run over by a CRJ.
I don't know if I would teach exiting the runway in an urgent manner. I had a student lock the brakes up and put us sideways in a multi engine aircraft before because he was trying to make a taxi way that the controller issued. I have also had controllers issue a turn off to me that I passed even before I can get in reverse good. I come to the acceptance that if I can make I'll make and if I don't make it....oh well.

One of my biggest issues with controllers is them issuing me a taxi clearance while I'm still at high speeds on the landing roll out.
 

DeltaAVL

New Member
10 feet?!

That is really, really close. Regardless of whose fault it was, something needs to be done to prevent it from happening in the future.
 
R

Roger, Roger

Guest
Well, of course there has to be a limit. But when they slow down and do their after landing checklist 20 feet before the hold short line when exiting...
 

justaprivate

New Member
10 feet?!

That is really, really close. Regardless of whose fault it was, something needs to be done to prevent it from happening in the future.
That's WAY too close for me, but the only way to prevent it (with certainty) is for the controller not to clear the departing aircraft to takeoff until he KNOWS the one landing has cleared the runway.

We can talk about regs, takeoff delays, best practices, and the real world all day, but the ONLY (for sure) way is to eliminate the possibility that the two planes will occupy the same space.

The question is, "Are we willing to take the time to do that?"
 

Scandinavian13

New Member
Regardless of the regs, as the Mesa crew, I would've made sure that guy was off of the runway.

I worked that plane before. I wonder if I met the crew a few months ago back at IAD.
 

OldTownPilot

Well-Known Member
I wonder what the elevation profile of the runway in question is. Is the turnoff that the Cessna took obscured in any way.
 

Cruise

Well-Known Member
I wonder what the elevation profile of the runway in question is. Is the turnoff that the Cessna took obscured in any way.

Growing up near ABE...and having been based there for a couple years, I can say w/ reasonable certainty, all runway turnoffs are visible from the position/ hold spots. However, the fact it was night does add to the difficulties and I can see how that might happen.
 

adreamer

Well-Known Member
Well, my question is whether pilots saw Cessna was taxxing off the runway or assuming Cessna will be cleared? :confused:
 

KLB

Well-Known Member
I think that another way to save this situation from happening is the pilot on the active runway should speak up if they hear the tower clear another aircraft to take and they know that they won't be off in a reasonable amount of time.
 

Barty

Well-Known Member
Regardless of the regs, as the Mesa crew, I would've made sure that guy was off of the runway.

I worked that plane before. I wonder if I met the crew a few months ago back at IAD.
Exactly. As it gets drummed into our heads from the first day someone calls up an ATC facility, you don't have to act on it if it is unsafe. At nighttime in particular, if someone lands ahead of me departing, I'm going to make damn sure they're off the runway myself before taking off. To me "Clear to takeoff" = "Clear to takeoff when safe and when able".
 

Cruise

Well-Known Member
Here's the article from the Morning Call (local newspaper):

Morning Call Article



And the airport diagram for KABE






Something doesn't make sense about all of this.....'cause there's no way you wouldn't see an aircraft at A4 from the Rwy 6 position and hold. Takeoff clearance or not, no way I'd be bringing the power up until I saw an aircraft was turning off the runway when they're that close. Also, there isn't enough room between A5 and A4 to accelerate into high speed abort range.

Oh well, the good news is no one got injured and no metal was bent......I'm interested in seeing the NTSB report on what really happened.
 

killbilly

Vocals, Lyrics, Triangle, Washboard, Kittens
I was cleared to land at KAUS one night with a SWA 737 on final. I got the plane down on the runway, and the controller tells me to exit Golf.

Well, 17R at KAUS is looooooong, and I brought it down pretty quick, so I ended up with a long rollout.

The tower started griping at me to hurry up and get off the runway, and I was rolling as quickly as I could to get to Golf, but I still had to slow to make the turn. It was unnerving. I got to the taxiway and off the runway just as the 737 was crossing the threshold (I know because I stopped and looked.)

I probably should have touched down further down the runway just as a matter of etiquette, but I didn't. I don't want to be the guy who causes a 737 to go around, but at the same time, you'd think the controller would have anticipated the possibility....
 

skidz

Well-Known Member
Mesa pilots must have been pisssd!!! :D and talking about passengers...i wonder if they wanted a refund and a new airplane? :D
 
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