Airline Pilots in Europe

[N519AT]

I was browsing through the Tech/Ops section of airliners.net as I normally do on boring weekend mornings at the FBO. I came across a thread titled: "An Airline Pilot's First Non-simulator Flight"

I decided to open the thread and read it. There were several American pilots that checked in with their experiences and European pilots as well. The difference was staggering.

This post struck particularly struck me:

[FONT=ARIAL,]Oh memory lane..

Just like Wilco I also had the so called "aircraft training" right after simulator training. It's basically touch and go training with an empty airplane to get the real feel of the airplane with different flap settings etc... If I recall correctly I did 6 touch and go's and then a 7 minute flight "home" with a full stop landing.

Then came the observer phase. I think it was 8 legs as observing pilot. You check in with the crew, wear your uniform and are an official crew member, without flying. You may do some paperwork or talk on the radio. I also went on a nightstop with the crew.

And then comes your first flight as an actual airline pilot. At my company the first 8 flights are accompanied by an experienced first officer on the jump seat. In case of captain incapacitation you will switch seats with the experienced FO as per procedure! What a nice guy mine was..he whispered to me after my first flight something along the lines of "psst..hey whatever the old guy says, that was a real nice landing

".

After 8 flights you have the "incapacitation check" where you will perform all tasks of the flight alone, or let's say almost all of them. The instructor captain will not interfere with the flight to make sure you can and could handle everything safely on your own. I had mine out of <acronym title="Frankfurt am Main (Rhein-Main AB) (FRA / FRF / EDDF), Germany">FRA</acronym> with about 9 hours on type and about 160 hours total time. From then on it's a 2 man (err I mean 2 person - for the gals

) cockpit.

At my employer it is required to fly 100 hours or approx. 60 legs whichever is more "under supervision" with specially trained instructor captains (<acronym title="Bristol / Johnson / Kingsport - Tri-Cities Regional (McKellar Tri-City) (TRI / KTRI), USA - Tennessee">TRI</acronym>). In those 100 hours you will have 3-4 incapacitation checks. Then you have a release flight (2 legs, 1PNF, 1PF) where a check airmen on the jumpseat will sign you off and thereafter finally the 2 check flights. The whole process will take about 4-6 months untill you are released to "fly the line".

Keep the sunny side up,

G[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana,Helvetica,Arial]An [/FONT]
It's kind of interesting all of the outcry/outrage that is going on in the US over pilots that were hired in the middle of the hiring "boom" that had wet commercials. Europe puts guys in the right seat of an airplane capable of grossing over 100,000 lbs with less time than a guy with a wet commercial and they do it safely. I realize that these programs are an ab-initio of sorts, I tried to get in on one myself with Etihad out of Abu Dhabi. The program was laid out for us at the orientation I went to and after we were to complete their training course (was designed for 0 hour pilots) we would have about 150-200 hrs (in Cessna 172s and DA-42s) and would start classroom training to be an A320 FO.

Basically, how can the public and airline pilots be outraged over the wet commercials when Europe has guys in the right seat of Boeing 737-800's with 160 pax in the back with only 160 TT? The general public seems to have no problem with it over there. If it is the training programs they have in place, why can't we do that in the United States? The program seems to be working, because the airlines with these programs aren't crashing airplanes left and right.

Now, don't get me wrong. I'm all for raising the bar. I just read this post this morning and thought there could be some good discussion from it. I have about 240 TT currently and I don't think I would be ready for the right seat of a turboprop, let alone a jet for quite some time. I'm just trying to play devil's advocate to the whole 1500 TT ATP rule that's trying to be put in place.[FONT=Verdana,Helvetica,Arial]v[/FONT] Once again, I'm not trying to post flame bait or anything...I just thought this could lead to some interesting discussion.

 

[seagull]

It's kind of interesting all of the outcry/outrage that is going on in the US over pilots that were hired in the middle of the hiring "boom" that had wet commercials. Europe puts guys in the right seat of an airplane capable of grossing over 100,000 lbs with less time than a guy with a wet commercial and they do it safely.

Basically, how can the public and airline pilots be outraged over the wet commercials when Europe has guys in the right seat of Boeing 737-800's with 160 pax in the back with only 160 TT? The general public seems to have no problem with it over there. If it is the training programs they have in place, why can't we do that in the United States? The program seems to be working, because the airlines with these programs aren't crashing airplanes left and right.

Their program is like our military training. Applicants are HIGHLY screened, and the training is intense. It is nothing like what you did in the U.S. You 're comparing apples and oranges. They can do it for the same reason that you can put someone in a very high performance fighter with very few hours and make it work.

 

[derg]

Screening. If you've got cash, sadly, regardless of skill level, you're probably going to eventually make it through the process here in the US. How many accidents have we had in the states with pilots who had more pink slips than a drag show?

 

[surreal1221]

Screening. If you've got cash, sadly, regardless of skill level, you're probably going to eventually make it through the process here in the US. How many accidents have we had in the states with pilots who had more pink slips than a drag show?

Bingo.

No screening was done for those who had the 80k to go in debt for.

Capitalism, it allows mentally deficient individuals into any profession for a small amount of cash.

 

[derg]

European ad initio programs do cognitive screening while US programs do a credit check!

 

[Goonie]

What about India?

They put 250TT guys in the right seat of 737's and A320's all day long, and believe me...no screening process.

Not many Air India, Spice Jet, Kingfisher crashes that I know of recently.

 

[Crockrocket94]

Having worked with both JAA SIC's and Captains, I have an intresting idea to input.

When I was co-piloting for a JAA client who was doing his Citation 560 XL Initial type, I learned a few things about the mindset of the pilots across the pond.

Initially, the captain would handle everything, he would almost not trust anything to the co-pilot, which at first I thought it was because he just disliked me. However, upon further training, I realized that it was "they way" over there. I was basically there to handle the radios nothing else. I asked him one day, why this was, and he replied that it was nothing personal just in Europe many of the co-pilots are hired with low time, and the captains do not trust them. Therefore, it let me into his mind a little bit. It was true, the captain never lets the co-pilot touch the controls unless it really dictated it. After I proved myself that I was not an ordinary co-pilot, things such as calling out minimums on the approaches were now sorted in the cockpit. Initially, the captain would be coming down the ILS, and their ops was to call 1000,500, 400,3,2,1 above approach mins. Well, the captain would always look outside at 100 feet to ensure the runway or lights were insight and make the co-pilot be inside. That is a differing approach from what most of us use over here. Once again, he said that he always went outside at mins because he did not trust the co-pilot to make a decision.

Fast forward a month or so, I am working with an SIC client on an Citation V Ultra Recurrent. He had no command authority or anything in the cockpit, and had poor command over the aircraft. However, when I talked to him, he said that his captains never let him fly. He said they just don't trust them.

So, I guess the difference could be and is the mentality which is ousted towards the person sitting in the right seat. I understand these could be just a rareity.

Just some thought there.

 

[AngelFuree]

Having worked with both JAA SIC's and Captains, I have an intresting idea to input.

When I was co-piloting for a JAA client who was doing his Citation 560 XL Initial type, I learned a few things about the mindset of the pilots across the pond.

Initially, the captain would handle everything, he would almost not trust anything to the co-pilot, which at first I thought it was because he just disliked me. However, upon further training, I realized that it was "they way" over there. I was basically there to handle the radios nothing else. I asked him one day, why this was, and he replied that it was nothing personal just in Europe many of the co-pilots are hired with low time, and the captains do not trust them. Therefore, it let me into his mind a little bit. It was true, the captain never lets the co-pilot touch the controls unless it really dictated it. After I proved myself that I was not an ordinary co-pilot, things such as calling out minimums on the approaches were now sorted in the cockpit. Initially, the captain would be coming down the ILS, and their ops was to call 1000,500, 400,3,2,1 above approach mins. Well, the captain would always look outside at 100 feet to ensure the runway or lights were insight and make the co-pilot be inside. That is a differing approach from what most of us use over here. Once again, he said that he always went outside at mins because he did not trust the co-pilot to make a decision.

Fast forward a month or so, I am working with an SIC client on an Citation V Ultra Recurrent. He had no command authority or anything in the cockpit, and had poor command over the aircraft. However, when I talked to him, he said that his captains never let him fly. He said they just don't trust them.

So, I guess the difference could be and is the mentality which is ousted towards the person sitting in the right seat. I understand these could be just a rareity.

Just some thought there.

Very interesting post.

 

[///AMG]

I agree....it's all about the level of training, not necissarily overall experience. To throw a parallel to military training (since it was mentioned), how many hours do you think the average newly winged Hornet pilot has? Not a whole lot more than 300 hours these days. It can be done, and it is done all the time. We just don't have the civilian flight training infrastructure (in most places) to provide the necissary training to make this happen as our European counterparts obviously have.

 

[granlistillo]

European ad initio programs do cognitive screening while US programs do a credit check!

This is generally true, especially in the more prestigious academy like FTE, SAS and the Netherlands government airline school. However ab initio training does not require any screening.

My point is this: there are some real under achievers that get the JAA tickets because they have the cash. I have seen some guys that could never get a sign off from a reputable FAA CFI to take a commercial ride here in the US get through. But deep pockets from mom and dad or deep pockets from a particular scandinavian gov't and they get through with a frozen JAA atpl. There are JAA schools willing and able to take their money, especially now. (I am talking about ab initio as well as modular programs)

Cadet training "schemes" are highly competitive and screened.

 

[Mk88A]

Hey from Germany,
so this is going to be my first post on this board and I've been a long time lurker due to the fact that I'm thinking about moving to the States somewhen and I just wanted to see how the "pilot's life" looks on your side of the pond.

Howerver I think that I finally can make a contribution to the board, 'cause this particular topic is quite interesting. Especially because I just discussed it with one of my FIs during my last xcountry flight. So the German (Austrian/Swiss) view is actually completely different than the US. I also try to get into one of the airlines with as much as 200TT. (I was a Navy helicopter Pilot before but it's still going to be 200h on fixed wing A/C). The thing over here is that you actually have to pass a quite extensive screening process before you get into the airline. The ab initios for Lufthansa for example have to get through 2 phases. During the first one your knowledge about maths, physics, english, aerodynamics, mechanics etc is tested. The second phase is all about "different situations" and your behaviour. You meet the chief pilot (or one of the higher seniority check pilots) and a psychologist, who put you and 4 other guys in a room, give you a task to solve and watch you how you perform in a team. Afterwards you got another "situation" where the psychologist poses as an angry PX or a bad F/A and you have to show your "captaincy skills". And at the end, if you make it so far, you have the interview with the captain and the psychologist who really start asking you about everything. So that's the process over here. And it is applied by every major Airline (LH, Condor, Swiss, Austrian, Air Berlin, TuiFly and so on). The funny thing is, that if you want to fly for the "Regionals" you still have to pass the same tests. However the Regionals around here belong to the "Team Lufthansa" and Lufthansa is quite sensitive about its image. So it's a way to keep the quality level as high as possible throughout the whole airline.
For somebody like me who would try to get into an airline as a "ready entry" it's the same process. The only difference is that the basic knowledge part now comprises atpl theory and maths+physics and a sim ride where you have to demonstrate that you can fly an SID followed by an approach+goaoround, a minor emergency and a final landing.
Afterwards, when you get into the airline, you get your type rating followed by flying under supervision and thes flying as FO.
So that's the way how it works in the German speaking area. Many FOs are 200TT guys. But it works quite well as long as you have a good Captain who's serious about teaching the FO, and accepts that he's a newbie and far from perfect. I tried to keep it a little general and simple because the topic is really extensive. And there are enough problems here too, so you can find many guys who complain about the "system".
But on the other hand you don't have that huge GA part over here. New pilots wouldn't have the possibility to get all the hours. Especially because many Europeans would find new FIs with 200h kind of odd. My Instructors are ATPL guys 2 of them ex Air Force and another 2 ex Lufthansa and all of them think that instructing with 200TT is just crazy.

But all that is just another view. I just tried to explain how it works here. And it shouldn't sound like there is a better or a worse way. Most of us over here just think that it's crazy to get out of school and become an FI. While many people in the States obviously think that it's crazy to fly an airliner with 200h.
But it seems to work on both sides. And I actually think that there isn't a perfect solution. We too have pilots over here who actually shouldn't fly.

However I hope that my writing style wasn't to weird and that nobody feels offended or anything. I just tried to clarify some things.

Have a nice day.

 

[E_Dawg]

Good info. I had the chance to hang with a Lufthansa Airbus crew in Frankfurt and they were extremely nice and professional. The FO was 23 and basically a newbie to the airlines, the captain was older, (40s), and had flown CRJs for Lufthansa's regional carrier previously.

 

[granlistillo]

MK88A,
Nice professional post, thanks for sharing that.

On a separate note, and I'm not saying Lufthansa, but there are flag carriers that are highly selective, and the most important qualification is "who's your daddy". In otherwords if your dad isn't in the company, or you are not highly connected, don't bother... Sounds like Lufthansa is a little bit less nepotistic than others, and that is sehr gut.

I know guys flying for discount carriers in Europe, low time that never did any psychometric testing before the actual interview process.

 

[Louie1975]

Their program is like our military training. Applicants are HIGHLY screened, and the training is intense. It is nothing like what you did in the U.S. You 're comparing apples and oranges. They can do it for the same reason that you can put someone in a very high performance fighter with very few hours and make it work.

I keep hearing this. The program I have been involved with(Chinese), at least from what I can see, has neither highly screened anyone or provided 'intense' training for anyone either.

And regarding the whole hoopla here over failed checkrides. A student here can fail stage checks, and checkrides multiple times, get through the program, and when they get home its off to Airline training.

Some of these 'cadets' do not belong in an airplane.

Is is my hope the airline doesn't upgrade some of these fellows.

 

[Roger, Roger]

Insane lending practices, they allow mentally deficient individuals into any profession for a small amount of cash.

Fixed it for you.

What genius thought it was a good idea to start lending 80K to some guy who won't make more than 20K until about 5 years down the road?

It doesn't seem like a great bet, but hey, they're still making the loans (or are they?) so they must know something I don't.

 

[surreal1221]

Fixed it for you.

What genius thought it was a good idea to start lending 80K to some guy who won't make more than 20K until about 5 years down the road?

It doesn't seem like a great bet, but hey, they're still making the loans (or are they?) so they must know something I don't.

SLM has pulled out of the flight training market. Seems the only one left in that crack game is PNC Bank. Or so I'm told by a certain marketing director at a certain training establishment I might or might not have attended.

 

[Crockrocket94]

Soon there will be a black market for training loans....


Intrest rates at 30%!!!!!!