Airline flying and instructing.
- Thread starter RynoB
- Start date
pilot602
If specified, this will replace the title that
Depends on what they or the FAA deems "commercial flying." Since technically you don't need a medical and you're not charging for pilot services when you instruct it shouldn't technically count against your flight time. But, I'm not sure the FAA/Airlines split hairs that thin. So ... if it does count against your time then the airline is definately going to have a problem with it.
Regardless, the last thing you're going to want to do after having flown three or four days is crawl into another airplane.
Regardless, the last thing you're going to want to do after having flown three or four days is crawl into another airplane.
The FAA considers any flight time as an instructor as commercial pilot time. That time applies to any 8 hour rules, 30 in 7 rules, 1000 a year rules, etc. etc. Most airlines will let you instruct on the side as long as it doesn't affect your flight time at the airline. most of the time, you'll need approval from a chief pilot or flight ops director, etc. etc. But like the last guy said, the only thing I want to get into after a 4 day is a 12 pack and a good looking young lady.......
Kingairer said:
I would - I didn't think I would, but I wouldn't mind instructing 1 day a week or something where it was useful. When I made a living at it it was getting old, but now I miss it (a little bit, I wouldn't want to go back to making a living at it
.But our airline won't let us instruct either - and it's not really up to the airline if it's commercial flying, it IS commercial flying instructing (for money) and it DOES count against your commercial flying allowance, and our company wants that all to themselves.....
desertdog71
Girthy Member
If you need or want extra Cash, what is to stop you from teaching some ground school classes?
casey
Well-Known Member
launchpad said:
thats not a view shared by every FSDO. Some believe that it does count as commercial time, and others (more correctly, imho) do not. Like said above you do not need a medical (if no need to act as PIC), and you are *not* excersizing the privleges of a commercial certificate even if charging for instruction.
call your local FSDO if you want to answer that applies to you, but good luck getting anything in writing
seagull
Well-Known Member
Casey,
Said it here before, will say it again because it is important to understand this. Matters not one bit what your local FSDO thinks about the issue. Doesn't matter if they side with you AND put it in writing, with your region sending you another letter affirming it. There is only ONE opinion that matters, and that is FAA Chief Counsel, Washington D.C.
The airlines have some experience with this, and it has been tested, I believe. In any event, you can try not counting it as commercial flight time if you want, but lots of luck if FAA decides to file against you. They will also file against the airline, btw, as they are not allowed to schedule you in excess of the limits. So, the most probable scenario is that you get fired and violated. You can try fighting it to the NTSB, but they'll side with the Chief Counsel. Oh, and lest you think a letter you got from your FSDO or Region will help you in this, best think again. It will have less value than the toilet paper in the men's room at NTSB at that hearing.
Not trying to sound harsh, but this is a double "foot stomper" issue to survive in this biz.
Said it here before, will say it again because it is important to understand this. Matters not one bit what your local FSDO thinks about the issue. Doesn't matter if they side with you AND put it in writing, with your region sending you another letter affirming it. There is only ONE opinion that matters, and that is FAA Chief Counsel, Washington D.C.
The airlines have some experience with this, and it has been tested, I believe. In any event, you can try not counting it as commercial flight time if you want, but lots of luck if FAA decides to file against you. They will also file against the airline, btw, as they are not allowed to schedule you in excess of the limits. So, the most probable scenario is that you get fired and violated. You can try fighting it to the NTSB, but they'll side with the Chief Counsel. Oh, and lest you think a letter you got from your FSDO or Region will help you in this, best think again. It will have less value than the toilet paper in the men's room at NTSB at that hearing.
Not trying to sound harsh, but this is a double "foot stomper" issue to survive in this biz.
DE727UPS
Well-Known Member
I've heard various things at my airline. Different opinions at both extremes of the issue.
I also know of a management pilot that once flew for one of those dogfight companies. Do you suppose he did it for nothing? I never asked him....
I could have sworn I once read an interpretation by our POI that instruction was not commercial flying but, for the life of me, I can't find the reference anymore. So it either never happened or it's old information.
In any case, I think you'd be okay 99 percent of the time with the don't ask, don't tell, policy.
I also know of a management pilot that once flew for one of those dogfight companies. Do you suppose he did it for nothing? I never asked him....
I could have sworn I once read an interpretation by our POI that instruction was not commercial flying but, for the life of me, I can't find the reference anymore. So it either never happened or it's old information.
In any case, I think you'd be okay 99 percent of the time with the don't ask, don't tell, policy.
casey
Well-Known Member
seagull said:
where can i find the FAA cheif counsel's opinions in writing? Am i going to have to dig through NTSB case history, administrative court procedings, etc or is this information hidden somewhere on the FAA's website or accessible via my local FSDO?
As far as an NTSB court proceding against you, i dont think it would matter if you had undeniable, indisputable record of Ms Blakely expressly giving you the authority to conduct part 91 flight instruction in leiu of any 121,123,135 duty time restrictions, they NTSB judge would still find a way to find against you.
And for the record, i do not flight instruct on the side, i'm just on this side of the fence for this argument. If you have case law you can site where this has been tested with a judgement, or record of FAA cheif counsel handing down an opinion on the matter, i would be very interesting in seeing that.
seagull
Well-Known Member
I haven't seen it myself, just heard tell. I wasn't questioning whether you were doing it, just cautioning against taking the word or a letter from your FSDO (incidentally, the airline's POI also is unable to grant an exemption, so don't take their word for it either, even in writing).
Actually, at my company, we have lots of pilots that have gotten authorization for flying on the side. One even has done some work for a part 121 cargo hauler (not a competitor of ours at any stretch, doubt that would be approved!).
For us, it's a matter of never getting close to FAR limits. That would be even more true for a management pilot, so it wouldn't surprise me if UPS was similarly relaxed about the issue.
Only once with my current company did I ever come close to an FAR limit. I flew almost 100 hrs in 30 days, but it was because I bumped a few trips because I wanted to vacation at the location anyway, and that way I got a guaranteed ride, a hotel and per diem. The trips each had 4 day layovers, so that worked out well.
Actually, at my company, we have lots of pilots that have gotten authorization for flying on the side. One even has done some work for a part 121 cargo hauler (not a competitor of ours at any stretch, doubt that would be approved!).
For us, it's a matter of never getting close to FAR limits. That would be even more true for a management pilot, so it wouldn't surprise me if UPS was similarly relaxed about the issue.
Only once with my current company did I ever come close to an FAR limit. I flew almost 100 hrs in 30 days, but it was because I bumped a few trips because I wanted to vacation at the location anyway, and that way I got a guaranteed ride, a hotel and per diem. The trips each had 4 day layovers, so that worked out well.
wheelsup
Well-Known Member
Who cares - it's the companies opinion in this case that matters. If they say I can't fly commercially anywhere else, including instruction (which they specifically mentioned) I'm not gonna do it.*casey said:
Here's an idea - can you flight instruct without a commercial license? My CFI ticket says "valid only when accompanied by certificate #XXXX". Why would it say I can only flight instruct when I carry my commercial license, if it's not "commercial" flying? Just doesn't add up, IMO.
If you really need to make some extra money as a first year FO, don't spend your per diem. For me, that's an extra $450.00/month tax free. With about 75% of my income going to taxes, that's like an extra $600.00/pre-tax, divide that by $20/hr and that's like instructing 30 hours per month, probably more than you'd do if you did it part time.
And the last thing I want to do after a 4-day is get into another plane, and go where someone else wants to go.
*Of course, most have a clause in the FOM that talks about getting permission, and if you have it than more power to you.
casey
Well-Known Member
wheelsup said:
I was operating under the assumption the company OK'd it or your CP signed off on the idea. Obviously this is step one, but its a moot point if FAA disagrees which is why i said that.
the regs dont always make sense. My copy says to excersize my commercial license i need to be in possession of a medical with second class privleges. It also says that to instruct i need either a third class, or no medical. Now im out instructing a primary student with my 3rd class medical, am i excersizing a commercial license?
not saying it makes sense, but this one i believe (its been a while...) is in black and white in the FAA's pt 61 FAQ. No longer available on the FAA's website (that i can find), but i have the 61 and 141 FAQ's if anyone wants them.
i'm right with you there. The only thing that would get me back into instructing in light airplanes would be the love of instruction, not money. Any first year FO trying to instruct would be doing a disservice to his students imho. Unless sticking solely to BFR's, IPC's and aircraft checkouts you just dont have the schedule to see a student through.
not spending your per-diem though? i have to eat on my trips
/derail
John_Mitchell
Well-Known Member
Not that I would ever do this, or recommend circumventing regulations on technicalities, but....
Although I am a very fresh student pilot and I probably don't know jack squat, I do remember reading somewhere in one of those fancy red Gleim books that the "only required time to be logged is that time required for a rating or certification"....maybe not the exact wording, but hopefully you get the message. Isn't that regulation basically saying that you do not HAVE to log time if you don't want to? Obviously, this is counterproductive to most pilots as they are trying to log as many hours as possible, but in your hypothetical case, the instructing hours would not be logged...therefore no problem....Once again, this is all hypothetical and clearly against the INTENT of the regulations.
As the saying goes, it's all fun and games until someone gets an eye put out. I would definitely not want to be a situation where an accident happened, and I actually had more flight time than what was logged and it was clear that the regulations were being circumvented on a techicality, WITH the intent to deceive.
Although I am a very fresh student pilot and I probably don't know jack squat, I do remember reading somewhere in one of those fancy red Gleim books that the "only required time to be logged is that time required for a rating or certification"....maybe not the exact wording, but hopefully you get the message. Isn't that regulation basically saying that you do not HAVE to log time if you don't want to? Obviously, this is counterproductive to most pilots as they are trying to log as many hours as possible, but in your hypothetical case, the instructing hours would not be logged...therefore no problem....Once again, this is all hypothetical and clearly against the INTENT of the regulations.
As the saying goes, it's all fun and games until someone gets an eye put out. I would definitely not want to be a situation where an accident happened, and I actually had more flight time than what was logged and it was clear that the regulations were being circumvented on a techicality, WITH the intent to deceive.