airline captain/first officer conflict

[GADD45B]

For those out there with 121 experience, I'm just curious as to what the general policy is for disagreements between captain and first officer.
If a first officer was to refuse to carry through with some operation that the captain insists on, because of a safety issue in the eyes of the first officer, how is this situation handled? Is this common and what are the repercussions?

 

[Kingairer]

Its uncommon. The "book" is there to make sure this type of thing doesnt happen, but there are also some circumstances that a book just cant cover. For these items the capt has the final authority of course. If this was something before the flight and the FO felt so strongly about it he was refusing to go, then he could be replaced. But in a circumstance like this, a capt needs to look at the situation and wonder why is this guy willing to go through this much trouble, and re evaluate the safety of the flight. The Capt has the tie breaker so as a FO you need to make sure you are giving them as much information as possible and leave nothing not understood. Possibly the capt isnt seeing the same thing you are, and if he had, maybe he would see the safety concern as well. Once your feelings are understood by both, you could possibly be in a position where the capt does it anyways, you've done your part at that point. (This doesnt cover like a capt who has gone TO and is trying to kill himself). Beyond that, be a little more specific or give a circumstance to get a better answer.

<----Check the hat out, and respect it!

 

[B767Driver]

For those out there with 121 experience, I'm just curious as to what the general policy is for disagreements between captain and first officer.
If a first officer was to refuse to carry through with some operation that the captain insists on, because of a safety issue in the eyes of the first officer, how is this situation handled? Is this common and what are the repercussions?

Our flight ops manual is very specific...it says that the captain's decision stands. It states that the first officer should challenge any decision that he feels is an inappropriate course of action...and the captains decision after such input shall stand. It takes a bit of heat off of the first officer if the captain refuses to alter his course due to the input. However, if imminent danger existed after the captain's decision the first officer should escalate his response appropriately.

Other than that...if it's not safety related...it's the captain's ship and his show to run how he see's fit. I honor that right. But after nearly ten years of pulling gear sometimes it can get very difficult.

I've always heard that you knew you were ready to upgrade when even the good captains drive you crazy.

 

[killbilly]

Other than that...if it's not safety related...it's the captain's ship and his show to run how he see's fit. I honor that right. But after nearly ten years of pulling gear sometimes it can get very difficult.

I've always heard that you knew you were ready to upgrade when even the good captains drive you crazy.

Is there a stigma attached to F/Os who raise an objection and get overruled anyway? During the major round of Comair discussion (and in some prior threads) someone(s) raised the issue that a lot of junior, low-time F/Os might be too intimidated to speak up when they should, and I was wondering if this was the reason.

 

[Cruise]

Punch the captain in the head and take over the plane. Say "shut-up foo....FO Mac-Daddy's at the controls now. We're doin' it my way."


Seriously, like others have said, it's the captain's plane. (S)He has final authority over the conduct of operations. If the FO disagrees w/ a decision.....speak up. State the nature of your concerns. The captain can overrule you if (s)he deems necessary. Then, you could ask for an explanation (time permitting) so you can possibly learn something new or what the reason for the final decision was. Perhaps you'll see the same situation in the future and you can then utilize your new found information.

 

[B767Driver]

Is there a stigma attached to F/Os who raise an objection and get overruled anyway? During the major round of Comair discussion (and in some prior threads) someone(s) raised the issue that a lot of junior, low-time F/Os might be too intimidated to speak up when they should, and I was wondering if this was the reason.

There's really no stigma attached...but a serious safety issue when a first officer is just "trying to keep the peace" and allows a captain to wander from standard operating procedure.

When I was new in the industry I just wanted to keep the captain happy and complete the trip peacefully.

Now, I could care less what the captain thinks of me. I'm going to be a great first officer for him and do my job as I'm supposed to do. If I have to tell him something safety related...I will and won't think twice. That's pretty much what all captains want anyway. At this level there's really no games. Lot's of thick skin. The issue is brought up...resolved...end of story.

However, when a first officer starts to play captain...that's a big no-no. Let the captain run his ship...taxi how he wants...turn the seat belt sign off when he wants...make the PA's how he want's...treat the flight attendants how he wants. That's all captain stuff and he's earned the right to manage those items as he sees fit.

 

[casey]

Is there a stigma attached to F/Os who raise an objection and get overruled anyway? During the major round of Comair discussion (and in some prior threads) someone(s) raised the issue that a lot of junior, low-time F/Os might be too intimidated to speak up when they should, and I was wondering if this was the reason.

no stigma, unless you are being unreasonable or an ass about it. the issue of a junior FO being imtimidated is just because they are new. They are still feeling out thier place in the cockpit and getting to know the airplane/procedures/line flying/etc.

 

[Kingairer]

There's really no stigma attached...but a serious safety issue when a first officer is just "trying to keep the peace" and allows a captain to wander from standard operating procedure.

When I was new in the industry I just wanted to keep the captain happy and complete the trip peacefully.

Now, I could care less what the captain thinks of me. I'm going to be a great first officer for him and do my job as I'm supposed to do. If I have to tell him something safety related...I will and won't think twice. That's pretty much what all captains want anyway. At this level there's really no games. Lot's of thick skin. The issue is brought up...resolved...end of story.

However, when a first officer starts to play captain...that's a big no-no. Let the captain run his ship...taxi how he wants...turn the seat belt sign off when he wants...make the PA's how he want's...treat the flight attendants how he wants. That's all captain stuff and he's earned the right to manage those items as he sees fit.

Right on, Top to Bottom.

 

[DE727UPS]

I was in the sim a couple of days ago with an ex-NWA pilot/current C-17 AF reserve pilot. He's also a new Capt at UPS, like me, so we ended up doing this sim together as each others F/O's.

The guy was AWESOME to work with cause he missed very little. I could tell, though, that he was an autobrakes guy and I just never use them. Every approach I did, he'd say "autobrakes available" (cause I never would turn them on), and, just to make him happy (didn't really matter to me), I'd use them after he said something. Finally, after the third approach, I just said "naw, I don't really need them", and that was it.

I could see a new F/O pushing the issue and saying "Well, the book recommends...." and I'd have to get into a discussion about how I know what the book recommends but since it's only a recommendation, I don't HAVE to do it...blah blah blah.

An F/O with a lot of time has the experience to see what's important and what's not. When to look the other way and when to be more forceful. Some F/O's with low experience are either going to not say anything out of intimidation or over quote the book on every issue. In any case, a good F/O knows how to approach a question in a way that isn't pushy or overly blunt....that's good CRM.

On the ride home I was in the jumpseat. A Capt delayed gear extension beyond what I'd consider "normal" and it got to the point where the very good F/O said "you want the gear"? The Capt said "five more box houses to go". The F/O said "huh? The Capt said "three more box houses to go". The F/O then gave up and the Capt called for the gear about 5 seconds later. I just thought it was kinda dumb the way the Capt was trying to be cute with his response. It's bad form to confuse your F/O below 2000 AGL...

 

[kellwolf]

Thankfully, every CA I've flown with so far has been nothing but fabulous. I'm still learning the airplane and getting comfortable, even with nearly 200 hours in the CRJ. The one thing I'm proud to say is, I've learned something from EVERY captain I've flown with that I think makes me better in the airplane. Whether it be an FMS trick, a configuration trick with flaps and spoilers or just some flow that makes things easier, it's something else that goes in my bag of tricks for later.

There have been a couple of times that I wasn't exactly sure of the thought process in the other seat, so I'd ask questions in a non-confrontational manner. "Why are you doing it that wasy instead of the way the book says" is for sure a confrontational manner, so I try to avoid that. I try to phrase it in a way that makes it clear I'm willing to learn without threatening the CA's authority. If I ever DO wind up with an ass for a CA that won't tell me what his grey matter is doing over there, this nudges him in the right direction. If that doesn't do it, THEN I go confrontational and we talk later on the ground. I haven't had to do that yet since everyone I've flown with has been a top notch professional.

 

[BobDDuck]

I've had one come to jesus talk with a captain. If I never have to do it again in my career I'll be happy, but if a similar situation arises I'll do it again in a heart beat. Mostly captains aren't stupid. Also, if they do start going down the wrong road for some reason most are very willing to take a suggestion from the FO as they were in the other seat once upon a time. Generally I find that the ones that are harder to work with are the ones that haven't been in the right seat in a long time. Not to say most senior captains can be diffucult, but most of the ones that are, tend to be senior.

 

[B767Driver]

Here's an excellent excerpt from Bob Buck, "North Star Over my Shoulder", Simon & Shuster, London, 2002, Chapter 1, pp 22-23.

"I lean over the counter for a closer look at my crew list and note that O.B. Smith is tonight's first officer, copilot, which makes for a warm feeling because O.B. is quiet, efficient, and a pleasure to be with.

A copilot can make a trip or ruin it; get someone who talks too much, gripes about the company, tries to impress you, tells long and boring anecdotes, or is overly aggressive in suggesting ways to run the flight, and the taste is unpleasant. Al was one of those. He was a captain on domestic, but bid copilot international on the 747 because it paid more and had the romance of flying to Europe and other distant places. But he couldn't stop being captain and started tuning radios and adjusting navigation items without telling me. I finally had to lecture him strongly: "You bid copilot, now #### it, be a copilot and not a captain. We'll do things my way, and if you don't like it go back to domestic". It worked and he settled down, but his resentment always showed.

Now and then there'd be a milquetoast who wouldn't get things done unless you told him each item you wanted. A good copilot is a balance of these things, following, doing as told, but strong enough to point out any error you have made.

All in all my copilots were fine, like O.B.: a big man from Iowa farm country who came to flying via the navy. (for some reason, naval aviators always seem to be from farms, way out in the middle of the country, far from the sea.) Farm people impress me because they generally have common sense, and if there's one trait a pilot should have in abundance it's good old-fashioned common sense. Farm people also have a way of recognizing that certain things, even unpleasant things, have to be done, they don't ##### about the chore, or cuss out the company because of some obnoxious procedure, and they don't get vocal or outwardly scared when things get tough like the weather going down......."

"If that were to happen, O.B. wouldn't change appearance a mite; he'd just settle into computing fuel, getting weather information....."

"Yes, it's a good feeling to have O.B. in that right seat beside you."


There's lots more on the topic of captain/copilot relations in this book that is just plain right on the money.

 

[GADD45B]

Thanks for the great replies. Very insightful.