AIP at United for no furloughs

ClearedForOption

French Computer Programmer and Systems Monitor
Some dude who dabbles in gardening...
So, being the ALPA geek that I am (and interested in how strategic messaging plays out) I read through a good chunk of the site. Albeit, there is a lot of jingoistic nonsense on there, along with the rantings of professional potsherds, they do make one salient point:

The optics of pilots who are on full time flight pay loss not sharing in the financial sacrifice proportional with the cuts that are beings asked of the whole group to keep every pilot on property.

The reason I bring this up is we had the same problem at my shop. Myself, along with pilots in other bases (who incidentally copied/pasted the exact text of my resolution) had to fight for the same issue. Luckily the pilots on full time flight pay loss, after some hard politicking, realized the optics of the situation and voluntarily and took a 5 hr pay cut - not exactly inline with what's being imposed on all the members, but it wasn't worth taking it to the mat. (I wrote the resolution to bargain and politick untimately for a 5 hr cut, so in the end it worked out exactly as I had envisioned.) The important thing is that once CARES 1 runs out, every pilot in our group will be sharing the load to save every job.

I believe that one of the most noble things that a trade unionist can do is to come collectively together to protect the employment of each and every member during a downturn. We are the tide that raises every ship during the good times and we all reach down together with life preservers to save people during the bad. It's right there in the title, we are a Union.

The intent of flight pay loss has always been a replacement for the trips that you would be flying, not a 'salary' for the work you are doing. The work is volunteer. The spirit of volunteerism calls you to bring your talents into play for the betterment of the whole. Flight pay loss compensates you for your lost work. Again right there in the title... flight pay, loss.

Anyhoo, I do hope that this one point does not drive a wedge within your group for what is still (I believe) an amazing deal.
 

BobDDuck

Island Bus Driver
The intent of flight pay loss has always been a replacement for the trips that you would be flying, not a 'salary' for the work you are doing. The work is volunteer. The spirit of volunteerism calls you to bring your talents into play for the betterment of the whole. Flight pay loss compensates you for your lost work. Again right there in the title... flight pay, loss.
Yes, and no, but mostly yes.

I often times end up working a way worse schedule of alpa days than I can hold if I was bidding normally. For the most part we don't do full time guys including the mec Chairman, although with how things are now, he (and the NC chair) are full time, which also saves two furloughs. That means that I either do trip drops, or more commonly put in pre known alpa days so i have some credit in PBS. At 6 hours a day, I'm pretty much coming out equal on days worked, but for the senior guys that can hold 22 hour 3 days, they end up working more.

As far as guys taking cuts if everyone else does... yeah, that's reasonable, except if every one else is only responsible for 10 days with their reduced guarantee and the union guys are still doing 20 says of work.
 

Dphoenix

Love lasagna, hate mondays
I was gonna say - I think Insler is working like 24-7 these days. I emailed the guy and got a response in 3 minutes. The optics would be great if they took a cut, yes, for the shared sacrifice bit, but I guarantee those guys are working harder than I am, currently getting 70 hours to sit at home dequal since June.
 

SlumTodd_Millionaire

Evil Landlord Capitalist
So, being the ALPA geek that I am (and interested in how strategic messaging plays out) I read through a good chunk of the site. Albeit, there is a lot of jingoistic nonsense on there, along with the rantings of professional potsherds, they do make one salient point:

The optics of pilots who are on full time flight pay loss not sharing in the financial sacrifice proportional with the cuts that are beings asked of the whole group to keep every pilot on property.

The reason I bring this up is we had the same problem at my shop. Myself, along with pilots in other bases (who incidentally copied/pasted the exact text of my resolution) had to fight for the same issue. Luckily the pilots on full time flight pay loss, after some hard politicking, realized the optics of the situation and voluntarily and took a 5 hr pay cut - not exactly inline with what's being imposed on all the members, but it wasn't worth taking it to the mat. (I wrote the resolution to bargain and politick untimately for a 5 hr cut, so in the end it worked out exactly as I had envisioned.) The important thing is that once CARES 1 runs out, every pilot in our group will be sharing the load to save every job.

I believe that one of the most noble things that a trade unionist can do is to come collectively together to protect the employment of each and every member during a downturn. We are the tide that raises every ship during the good times and we all reach down together with life preservers to save people during the bad. It's right there in the title, we are a Union.

The intent of flight pay loss has always been a replacement for the trips that you would be flying, not a 'salary' for the work you are doing. The work is volunteer. The spirit of volunteerism calls you to bring your talents into play for the betterment of the whole. Flight pay loss compensates you for your lost work. Again right there in the title... flight pay, loss.

Anyhoo, I do hope that this one point does not drive a wedge within your group for what is still (I believe) an amazing deal.
I worked 18-20 hour days, 25+ days a month, for three straight years on full time union leave. I’d tell anyone just where they could shove it if they told me to take a cut. As far as I’m concerned, full time leave should come with a premium.
 

jynxyjoe

The Kickin' Chicken!
I worked 18-20 hour days, 25+ days a month, for three straight years on full time union leave. I’d tell anyone just where they could shove it if they told me to take a cut. As far as I’m concerned, full time leave should come with a premium.
I did 14 a day on principle. I wasnt doing a marathon every month though. My opinion, there are way too many guys trying to sniff out flight pay loss because they think union volunteering is a good deal.
 

ClearedForOption

French Computer Programmer and Systems Monitor
I worked 18-20 hour days, 25+ days a month, for three straight years on full time union leave. I’d tell anyone just where they could shove it if they told me to take a cut. As far as I’m concerned, full time leave should come with a premium.
Thank you for your service and for giving back.

And respectfully, you are completely wrong.

It's Flight Pay Loss. The volunteering is, volunteering.

And for the record, I worked my rear end off for my group. 30 days a month for over three years - not on full time leave. 25-35 hours a month FPL, still flying, still answering the phone and emails on every single overnight, every commute. Pushing that rock up the hill every day. Every day at home I was glued to a device. Free time was nonexistent. I had to fight for those FPL hours tooth and nail, it wasn't nearly enough for the workload. (Because I broke rule #1, because it took me a couple of years to fufill rule #2, because my job was the model for rule #3 and no one wanted to do it.) We also had internal process problems that took up way too much time.

What I figured out when being submerged in Union work boils down to this: 1.) No one is irreplaceable. If someone is, then something is messed up. Fix it. 2.) Day one, find and train your replacement. 3.) Every job is thankless. Satisfaction comes from helping people. 4.) When you leave, make sure that you leave things in a better condition than you inherited them.

It would well be within your rights to step back, set limits, or even resign if you were unwilling to share in the same cuts as every line pilot on property. The point is that there should not be a super-secret-squirrel-A+ scale for the pilots who happen to do time in the union office. It doesn't look good, especially when it's the dues dollars of the line pilots that is funding that flight pay loss.

Finally, you have to understand the wanky politics of our franchise. And why this is such a hot topic for me. Our policy manual had to be updated by our reps to force certain elected officials onto Full Time FPL because there was no requirement for them to take 'full time leave.' For instance, hypothetically, if you took just under full time leave and then picked up a bunch of open time... (or even premium open time) well, you could have quite the paycheck at the end of the month. On full-time you get 90, and any flying credits back, so it's not member funded.
 

ClearedForOption

French Computer Programmer and Systems Monitor
Yes, and no, but mostly yes.

I often times end up working a way worse schedule of alpa days than I can hold if I was bidding normally. For the most part we don't do full time guys including the mec Chairman, although with how things are now, he (and the NC chair) are full time, which also saves two furloughs. That means that I either do trip drops, or more commonly put in pre known alpa days so i have some credit in PBS. At 6 hours a day, I'm pretty much coming out equal on days worked, but for the senior guys that can hold 22 hour 3 days, they end up working more.

As far as guys taking cuts if everyone else does... yeah, that's reasonable, except if every one else is only responsible for 10 days with their reduced guarantee and the union guys are still doing 20 says of work.
It's a tough line to straddle because of the workload. I get it. My point is just about the optics. The perceived abuse of FPL is always a hot topic and FPL in general is just something that is always becomes an anchor during the downturns... I've seen the same rhetoric, well, for the last 3 cycles.

Have you been doing the volunteer work long? Did we meet and not know it when your shop and mine did a group dinner together in DC during your endgame negotiations, I wanna say back in '16/'17ish? (We were having a MEC meeting in town that week and our MEC Chair set up a educational get-together since you were all hands on deck for negotiations.)
 

BobDDuck

Island Bus Driver
Have you been doing the volunteer work long? Did we meet and not know it when your shop and mine did a group dinner together in DC during your endgame negotiations, I wanna say back in '16/'17ish? (We were having a MEC meeting in town that week and our MEC Chair set up a educational get-together since you were all hands on deck for negotiations.)
I've been in the position I'm in now since early 2015, so it is probable we met at some point. I'm trying to remember a meeting with another property around the end of our section 6, but I'm totally drawing a blank. More recently there was a CBC conference that American hosted in DC in 2018 (or maybe 2019?) that I think I met a few of your guys (or maybe you?) at. We did go to the last Negotiating Training Conference in Herndon, right before they moved offices, too, but other than that (besides our Chair who is pretty tied in at the CBC level), we are pretty much on our own little rock in the ocean.
 

ClearedForOption

French Computer Programmer and Systems Monitor
I've been in the position I'm in now since early 2015, so it is probable we met at some point. I'm trying to remember a meeting with another property around the end of our section 6, but I'm totally drawing a blank. More recently there was a CBC conference that American hosted in DC in 2018 (or maybe 2019?) that I think I met a few of your guys (or maybe you?) at. We did go to the last Negotiating Training Conference in Herndon, right before they moved offices, too, but other than that (besides our Chair who is pretty tied in at the CBC level), we are pretty much on our own little rock in the ocean.
I wish that I kept a journal or something from back then... would make things easier to remember. But, going through my photos I would guess it was June of ‘17. (We were trying to have sit downs with all the different properties, did SPA and FFT during the BOD in ‘16, did some of them via conference call) The whole idea because we were ‘new’ was to soak up as much tribal knowledge about negotiations from as many groups as possible.

I remember meeting Hoon that night. And I talked that night with someone about the whole online campaign you guys did during endgame. (Genius; BTW. And was setting up to shamelessly rip it off.) And I remember talking about how your offices were structured, near the airport, how you could just easily get things done because it was so close when people were coming or going.

And it was some goofy place in downtown DC. Maybe a seafood place? I got a random unimpressive cut of meat. You had to go up a set of stairs to the small room we were all crammed in. Long U shaped table against 3 walls.

Wouldn’t have been at any of the NC things. I was the comm chair for my group. I was going to run for rep, and jump back in, but just got kicked out of base and am going to another council.
 

BobDDuck

Island Bus Driver
I wish that I kept a journal or something from back then... would make things easier to remember. But, going through my photos I would guess it was June of ‘17. (We were trying to have sit downs with all the different properties, did SPA and FFT during the BOD in ‘16, did some of them via conference call) The whole idea because we were ‘new’ was to soak up as much tribal knowledge about negotiations from as many groups as possible.

I remember meeting Hoon that night. And I talked that night with someone about the whole online campaign you guys did during endgame. (Genius; BTW. And was setting up to shamelessly rip it off.) And I remember talking about how your offices were structured, near the airport, how you could just easily get things done because it was so close when people were coming or going.

And it was some goofy place in downtown DC. Maybe a seafood place? I got a random unimpressive cut of meat. You had to go up a set of stairs to the small room we were all crammed in. Long U shaped table against 3 walls.

Wouldn’t have been at any of the NC things. I was the comm chair for my group. I was going to run for rep, and jump back in, but just got kicked out of base and am going to another council.
Like Shaggy said... wasn't me!

I think we closed out the contract in January of February of 2017 and that Spring we were neck deep in integration issues. I don't think we went anywhere as a committee.
 

turbomax97

What can brown do for you?
The sun will rise tomorrow. And i have no idea what to think anymore. Just got scheduled to requal on the 756 a month before recurrent after receiving my guppy displacement. Guess I need to be in ewr for the fall resurgence :confused:
 
Top