Aerobatics in Training Aircraft

CoffeeIcePapers

CoffeeIcePapers

Well-Hung Member
The NTSB finally released the final report on N55307, a Piper Arrow that was in use at Skymates, where I work. I didn't know Robert very well, but he always seemed to be in a good mood and always had a smile on his face. I wish I would have known what was happening before the accident happened.

We all get in the invincibility mode at some point in our lives, and hopefully someone reading this won't make the same mistakes.

Here is a link to the final report:

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief2.asp?ev_id=20071119X01812&ntsbno=DFW08FA031&akey=1

To anyone who is doing aerobatics in aircraft that aren't certified for it, hopefully this will be a wakeup call. We have had extensive discussion on this forum about this subject. RIP Robert, Luca, and Andrea.
 
Not the time to be a test pilot, in a plane not certed for aerobatics. Just because some guys can fly these planes in airshows like this (within G tolerances, etc....like Bob Hoover), doesn't mean everyone should attempt it.
 
mojo6911 said:
To anyone who is doing aerobatics in aircraft that aren't certified for it, hopefully this will be a wakeup call.
Click to expand...

It won't. To the pilots doing aerobatics in non-certified planes, those who kill themselves are crappy pilots, and they know that they themselves are not.
 
Just read the report and that person was a definite fool. One question I had would be to the other instructors the NTSB spoke to...If you know that a fellow instructor is doing those kids of things in aircraft they should not be doing them in, why not speak up?
 
JEP said:
If you know that a fellow instructor is doing those kids of things in aircraft they should not be doing them in, why not speak up?
Click to expand...

You have to find someone who cares, first. Our flight school management was, in general, apathetic to what renters or instructors were doing in the airplane. As for reporting it to the FAA, you'd have difficulty providing proof, particularly when your own information is hearsay.

At a new flight school, I noticed a renter who used to patronize my old flight school and was rumored to do aerobatics in our Archer. I pulled aside the flight school owner and warned him about the guy. He said he'd already heard and had had a talk with the renter.

Talk? Like that's going to change any well-established behavior. These people need to be cut off. My old flight school failed to do that and one guy stalled a new C172S into a nearby lake. Since the guy's behavior was well-known at the flight school, and the pilot a friend of the owner, the school had only itself to blame for the financial disaster that followed. (Turns out the plane was uninsured.)
 
This report makes me feel a lot better - anytime an a/c disintegrates in flight, it gives you chills. To hear that the CFI was being reckless with the airframe makes me more confident. Unfortunate for the victims, though.
 
tgrayson said:
As for reporting it to the FAA, you'd have difficulty providing proof, particularly when your own information is hearsay.
Click to expand...

Hour glass or tube with a check valve (that won't open by simply pushing the nose over real hard). Management hid it in the tail behind the ELT before a flight with an instructor that they already heard stories about. He got the pink slip, when sand was in the top half after he landed. Won't work during perfectly done 1G rolls but for everything else...
 
I haven't done Aero since the T-34 almost 20 years ago. But it seems like the manuever in question (when the instructor asked the accident instructor how it was done) was an aileron roll and not a "barrel roll". So apparently the guy didn't even know what it was that he was even doing. edit: ok the accident instructor said "snap roll" even more ridiculous.

Before the accident flight, the instructor and the accident flight instructor had lunch together. The instructor reported that she asked the accident flight instructor to "not do any funny stuff" with her student on board. She didn't want him to learn any "bad habits." The instructor further reported that she had heard, before the accident, that the accident flight instructor had done a "barrel roll" in one of the flight school's airplane's.

According to a second flight instructor, the accident flight instructor was the best pilot he had ever flown with. This instructor recalled a conversation where the accident flight instructor revealed that he had performed a "snap roll" in a couple of flight school's airplanes. According to the instructor, he had expressed his displeasure to the accident flight instructor about his performing "snap rolls." The instructor reported that he had not heard anything further about the accident flight instructor performing this maneuver and assumed he had stopped.

When the IIC asked the instructor to describe how this maneuver was done, he responded with the following: The airplane is nosed over until 140 knots is reached. The pilot then pitches up until about 10 to 15 degrees above the horizon. The pilot then applies left rudder and aileron.

The second fight instructor further reported that the accident flight had been intended to be a time builder for the foreign-certificated pilot and that to the best of his knowledge there was no other flight training planned.

According to a primary flight student, the accident flight instructor had demonstrated a "barrel roll" and "spins" to him in a Cessna 172SP once or twice. The student described that to do a roll they would pitch the airplane's nose down until they reached 140 knots. At that point they would "pitch up and then turn." The student continued that the roll was "smooth" and "not violent." The student further reported that the accident flight instructor was a very good pilot.


I know he had friends on JC, and is not here to defend himself, but this was totally preventable.

RIP
 
I've only done aerobatics once in my flying career, and that was in a Christen Eagle II. One of the most aerobatic Bi-planes there is.

I would never think of doing it in my 152 or for any other plane for that matter.

Although yes it was a foolish move, may they RIP
 
Soku39 said:
Hour glass or tube with a check valve (that won't open by simply pushing the nose over real hard). Management hid it in the tail behind the ELT before a flight with an instructor that they already heard stories about. He got the pink slip, when sand was in the top half after he landed. Won't work during perfectly done 1G rolls but for everything else...
Click to expand...

Nice :D

Wouldn't work on a loop either. But who would be silly enough to try that in an arrow... never mind.:rolleyes:
 
Murdoughnut said:
This report makes me feel a lot better - anytime an a/c disintegrates in flight, it gives you chills. To hear that the CFI was being reckless with the airframe makes me more confident. Unfortunate for the victims, though.
Click to expand...

I am glad you feel better. :rolleyes:
 
Airplanes are a marvelous creature, remember humans weren't really meant to fly and when we do fly we become different people. I am guilty of doing things I shouldn't be doing because I like test my flying skills.

But on a positive note I got 800 posts now!!!
 
CN94559 said:
I would never think of doing it in my 152 or for any other plane for that matter.
Click to expand...

A few 152s were certified in the aerobatic catagory, and I would have no problem doing aerobatics in one of those. Provided I had the proper training and we only did the manuvers that were permited in the POH.

I used to demonstrate spins to my PPL students, but only in airplanes that were certified for such manuvers.
 
SFCC/UND said:
Airplanes are a marvelous creature, remember humans weren't really meant to fly and when we do fly we become different people. I am guilty of doing things I shouldn't be doing because I like test my flying skills.
Click to expand...

Not trying to flame you buddy but your post comes across as unprofessional.

Shouldn't do? Well if you shouldn't do them then don't. As far as "testing" your skills, you should never do anything unless you are near 100% it is within your abilities and the aircraft. If the outcome is in doubt, just say no.
 
Someone want to play Bob Hoover it is ok by me...as long as it is in an airplane that they own and that they never plan to sell to some unsuspecting bystander. Certainly isn't ok in a rental (aerobatic schools are excepted). I don't really care what happens to the people that do this, I am more concerned with someone that is stuck flying the airplane after it has been overstressed.

As I stated before, accelerometers in rentals would be a neat thing - a remotely placed one that couldn't be reset.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top