Aerial Banners plane crash

drunkenbeagle said:
Ugh, so sad. Having the fuel tank between your legs is something I don't like thinking flying the Pawnee.
Click to expand...
Later models had the tank, now (X2) relocated in the wings I think, prior to that they had a mod consisting of a bladder type fuel cell to minimise the occurance of fire in case of crash.
 
drunkenbeagle said:
Ugh, so sad. Having the fuel tank between your legs is something I don't like thinking flying the Pawnee.
Click to expand...

I once met a guy that jumped out of a Pawnee because it caught fire during departure. He was only a couple, maybe a few hundred feet into the climb and said he’d rather try his luck under canopy (why he had a parachute on I don’t remember but it paid off) than crashing with a fuel drum between his legs.
 
Murdoughnut said:
I mean it sounds like he held on to the banner to "drop it over a lake" instead of ditching it when he should of. Wrong call, but sounds like his intent was noble.
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Although I absolutely acknowledge the concept, it's our job to not put people in danger.

I've had problems while flying banners, and have almost dropped more than one due to engine problems
It's part of the job.

I am also curious if there was any communication between the owner and the pilot pressuring to bring the banner home (via cell or radio)

The owner is the type of guy to apply pressure in those situations.

(yes I'm familiar with the operations)
 
DropTank said:
Although I absolutely acknowledge the concept, it's our job to not put people in danger.

I've had problems while flying banners, and have almost dropped more than one due to engine problems
It's part of the job.

I am also curious if there was any communication between the owner and the pilot pressuring to bring the banner home (via cell or radio)

The owner is the type of guy to apply pressure in those situations.

(yes I'm familiar with the operations)
Click to expand...
Not his first rodeo sadly

www.kathrynsreport.com

Piper PA-25-235 Pawnee B, operated by Aerial Banners North Inc under the provisions of Title 14 Code of Federal Regulations Part 91 as a local banner tow flight, N145AB: Fatal accident occurred March 01, 2019 in Fort Lauderdale, Broward County,

The National Transportation Safety Board traveled to the scene of this accident. Additional Participating Entities: Federal Aviation Admi...
www.kathrynsreport.com www.kathrynsreport.com

www.kathrynsreport.com

Cessna L19-305A Bird Dog, Aerial Banners Inc., N212KY: Incident occurred September 06, 2014 in Atlantic Ocean off Miami Beach, Florida

AERIAL BANNERS INC: http://registry.faa.gov/N212KY Flight Standards District Office: FAA Miami FSDO-19 AIRCRAFT, DURING BANNER TOW OPERA...
www.kathrynsreport.com www.kathrynsreport.com
 
melax said:
Later models had the tank, now (X2) relocated in the wings I think, prior to that they had a mod consisting of a bladder type fuel cell to minimise the occurance of fire in case of crash.
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Those are the D model Pawnee wings, which I think most prefer (I did at least). That does add two boost pumps though, so more ways to run out of gas. The one I flew didn't have a fuel selector, so if you weren't as coordinated as you should be, easy to get a fuel imbalance.
 
This is a pretty dangerous job for new folks trying to build hours. You don't know what you don't know. In my 1.5yr stint towing, we lost 1 pilot and 2 planes. The pick-up is the most dangerous part, especially with high(er) DA. The video that @CFI A&P linked showed the Pawnee wallowing before disappearing behind the buildings. To me, it appears to be engine trouble and getting too slow; in this case, always cut the banner loose. Always. If you wait too long, the banner/lead line acts as a sling shot to the aircraft.

God speed to the young Lad.
 
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And another one today...

Looks like same airport, same company.

Date:25-MAY-2023
Time:c. 12:07
Type:
Silhouette image of generic PA25 model; specific model in this crash may look slightly different

Piper PA-25-260 Pawnee D
Owner/operator:Aerial Banners North Inc
Registration:N454AB
MSN:25-7556048
Fatalities:Fatalities: 0 / Occupants: 1
Other fatalities:0
Aircraft damage:Substantial
Category:Accident
Location:Hollywood-North Perry Airport (HWO/KHWO), North Perry, FL -
N.gif
United States of America
Phase:Manoeuvring (airshow, firefighting, ag.ops.)
Nature:Banner and glider towing
Departure airport:Hollywood-North Perry Airport, FL (HWO/KHWO)
Destination airport:Hollywood-North Perry Airport, FL (HWO/KHWO)
Investigating agency:NTSB
Confidence Rating:
CR2.svg
Information verified through data from accident investigation authorities
Narrative:
The aircraft crashed under unknown circumstances.

1685051850412.png
 
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When you guys say fuel tank between your legs, are you just talking that general area? I towed gliders in two -260Cs and a -260D and both the Cs had the hopper removed so it was all open inside and a header tank forward of the instrument panel.

Similar to this:
www.jetphotos.com

F-GFPD | Piper PA-25-235 Pawnee | Private | HA-KLS | JetPhotos

F-GFPD. Piper PA-25-235 Pawnee. JetPhotos.com is the biggest database of aviation photographs with over 6 million screened photos online!
www.jetphotos.com www.jetphotos.com

Looks like the fuel tank comes pre-molded into the sheet metal skin just forward of the cockpit, which is why they’re able to poke the fuel quantity indicator out the top in the little plastic dome:
1685054263552.png


To be honest I preferred the Cs way more than the D with wing tanks due to the complicated fuel system as previously mentioned. But I get the point that having a header tank in the cockpit with you is disconcerting and sketchy during a crash.

With all the wing and horizontal stabilizer attach point inspection ADs due to the pesticides eating away the steel mounts, and the fact that the wing struts are loaded in compression instead of tension (and thus much beefier due to being prone to buckling unlike a high wing), I wasn’t sure whether I was going to die first from a tail falling off, a wing falling off, or a post crash fire.

I constantly miss flying that airplane but seeing that photo on the news of the cockpit fully engulfed was very sobering.
 
fholbert said:
And another one today...

Looks like same airport, same company.

Date:25-MAY-2023
Time:c. 12:07
Type:
Silhouette image of generic PA25 model; specific model in this crash may look slightly different

Piper PA-25-260 Pawnee D
Owner/operator:Aerial Banners North Inc
Registration:N454AB
MSN:25-7556048
Fatalities:Fatalities: 0 / Occupants: 1
Other fatalities:0
Aircraft damage:Substantial
Category:Accident
Location:Hollywood-North Perry Airport (HWO/KHWO), North Perry, FL -
N.gif
United States of America
Phase:Manoeuvring (airshow, firefighting, ag.ops.)
Nature:Banner and glider towing
Departure airport:Hollywood-North Perry Airport, FL (HWO/KHWO)
Destination airport:Hollywood-North Perry Airport, FL (HWO/KHWO)
Investigating agency:NTSB
Confidence Rating:
CR2.svg
Information verified through data from accident investigation authorities
Narrative:
The aircraft crashed under unknown circumstances.

View attachment 71838
Click to expand...

WTFH is going on down there?
 
inigo88 said:
When you guys say fuel tank between your legs, are you just talking that general area? I towed gliders in two -260Cs and a -260D and both the Cs had the hopper removed so it was all open inside and a header tank forward of the instrument panel.
Click to expand...

Yeah, just the proximity of the tank. Not that it would be easy to nose over a Pawnee, but if you somehow did, it is exactly the place you wouldn't want to rupture a fuel tank. Otherwise, they are great airplanes to fly. Does great on turf, easy to land, hard to ground loop, flies exactly like you would expect it to.
 
The preliminary report is out, and this doesn’t seem to be related to the accident, but the airframe total time caught my attention: 95,731.1 hours during the last annual in March 2023. Yes, niner fife seven tree one.
 
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