Acronym's...........
- Thread starter jonnyb
- Start date
Re: Acronym\'s...........
Day VFR... (works best for a simple single-engine aircraft)
Gas guages
Oil temp
Oil Pressure
Seat belts/shoulder harnesses
ELT
Altimeter
Compass
Airspeed Indicator
Tachometer
Night VFR....
Fuses
Landing Light (if fir hire)
Anticollision
Position lights
Source of electricity
IFR
Generator/alternator
Radio
Altimeter(sensitive)
Ball (turn and slip)
Clock
Attitude indicator
Rate of turn indicator
Directional gyro
DME if > 24,000'
Hope that helps
Day VFR... (works best for a simple single-engine aircraft)
Gas guages
Oil temp
Oil Pressure
Seat belts/shoulder harnesses
ELT
Altimeter
Compass
Airspeed Indicator
Tachometer
Night VFR....
Fuses
Landing Light (if fir hire)
Anticollision
Position lights
Source of electricity
IFR
Generator/alternator
Radio
Altimeter(sensitive)
Ball (turn and slip)
Clock
Attitude indicator
Rate of turn indicator
Directional gyro
DME if > 24,000'
Hope that helps
kellwolf
Piece of Trash
Re: Acronym\'s...........
Let's see if I can remember this...
Altimeter
Temperature Gauge (for liquid cooled engines)
Oil Pressure Gauge
Manifold Pressure for constant speed props
Airspeed Indicator
Tachometer
Oil Temp Gauge
Fuel Indicators (one for each tank)
Landing Gear indicators (if retractable gear)
Anti-collision lights
Magnetic Compass
Emergency Equipment (ELT, flotation devices if needed, etc)
Seatbelts
Let's see if I can remember this...
Altimeter
Temperature Gauge (for liquid cooled engines)
Oil Pressure Gauge
Manifold Pressure for constant speed props
Airspeed Indicator
Tachometer
Oil Temp Gauge
Fuel Indicators (one for each tank)
Landing Gear indicators (if retractable gear)
Anti-collision lights
Magnetic Compass
Emergency Equipment (ELT, flotation devices if needed, etc)
Seatbelts
MidlifeFlyer
Well-Known Member
Re: Acronym\'s...........
Of course, I hope you realize that there's a catch to the acronyms. I ran in informal survey last year. The result was that someone who learned the acronym was more likely to get a required equipment question wrong that someone who did not.
Here's an easy one. You are doing your preflight in a Cessna 172 for a day VFR flight. You discover that the stall warning horn is inoperative. May you legally fly the airplane?
Of course, I hope you realize that there's a catch to the acronyms. I ran in informal survey last year. The result was that someone who learned the acronym was more likely to get a required equipment question wrong that someone who did not.
Here's an easy one. You are doing your preflight in a Cessna 172 for a day VFR flight. You discover that the stall warning horn is inoperative. May you legally fly the airplane?
Jeff_S_KDTW
New Member
Re: Acronym\'s...........
[ QUOTE ]
Here's an easy one. You are doing your preflight in a Cessna 172 for a day VFR flight. You discover that the stall warning horn is inoperative. May you legally fly the airplane?
[/ QUOTE ]Can I play? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
[ QUOTE ]
Here's an easy one. You are doing your preflight in a Cessna 172 for a day VFR flight. You discover that the stall warning horn is inoperative. May you legally fly the airplane?
[/ QUOTE ]Can I play? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
stuckingfk
Well-Known Member
Re: Acronym\'s...........
[ QUOTE ]
Of course, I hope you realize that there's a catch to the acronyms. I ran in informal survey last year. The result was that someone who learned the acronym was more likely to get a required equipment question wrong that someone who did not.
Here's an easy one. You are doing your preflight in a Cessna 172 for a day VFR flight. You discover that the stall warning horn is inoperative. May you legally fly the airplane?
[/ QUOTE ]
I'll say no, I am sure it would fall under 91.213 and the what the 172 was type certificated for.
[ QUOTE ]
Of course, I hope you realize that there's a catch to the acronyms. I ran in informal survey last year. The result was that someone who learned the acronym was more likely to get a required equipment question wrong that someone who did not.
Here's an easy one. You are doing your preflight in a Cessna 172 for a day VFR flight. You discover that the stall warning horn is inoperative. May you legally fly the airplane?
[/ QUOTE ]
I'll say no, I am sure it would fall under 91.213 and the what the 172 was type certificated for.
TallBoy85
Well-Known Member
Re: Acronym\'s...........
*sigh*
(a) Except as provided in paragraph (d) of this section, no person may take off an aircraft with inoperative instruments or equipment installed unless the following conditions are met
That's 91.213(a). That has nothing to do with the certification requirements of the airplane. Everyone gets that question wrong because before I started working at my last school, not even RIDDLE taught maintenance right. No person may TAKE OFF. If it fails in flight you're legal, that's the first cool part. Under our MEL we had, I don't believe we could MEL the stall warning horn, but we could have a mechanic defer it, or defer anything else that wasn't on our MEL indefinitely. If you didn't have an MEL, you could have the inoperative equipment removed if possible or deactivated and placarded inoperative by a mechanic and deferred in your maintenance logs. I remember hearing about a FAA maintenance crack down where they were citing pilots for flying with inoperative cigar lighters on their Bonanzas.
Oh and Paragraph (d) of 91.213 is the flow you're required to go through any time you find inoperative equipment on your airplane, and completing that flow finds the aircraft in an acceptably altered state to the administrator, which includes grounding it. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bandit.gif
*sigh*
(a) Except as provided in paragraph (d) of this section, no person may take off an aircraft with inoperative instruments or equipment installed unless the following conditions are met
That's 91.213(a). That has nothing to do with the certification requirements of the airplane. Everyone gets that question wrong because before I started working at my last school, not even RIDDLE taught maintenance right. No person may TAKE OFF. If it fails in flight you're legal, that's the first cool part. Under our MEL we had, I don't believe we could MEL the stall warning horn, but we could have a mechanic defer it, or defer anything else that wasn't on our MEL indefinitely. If you didn't have an MEL, you could have the inoperative equipment removed if possible or deactivated and placarded inoperative by a mechanic and deferred in your maintenance logs. I remember hearing about a FAA maintenance crack down where they were citing pilots for flying with inoperative cigar lighters on their Bonanzas.
Oh and Paragraph (d) of 91.213 is the flow you're required to go through any time you find inoperative equipment on your airplane, and completing that flow finds the aircraft in an acceptably altered state to the administrator, which includes grounding it. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bandit.gif
RiddlePilot
New Member
Re: Acronym\'s...........
[ QUOTE ]
not even RIDDLE taught maintenance right
[/ QUOTE ]
They still don't. I got my ass handed to me during my CFI initial because of it, too.
[ QUOTE ]
not even RIDDLE taught maintenance right
[/ QUOTE ]
They still don't. I got my ass handed to me during my CFI initial because of it, too.
MidlifeFlyer
Well-Known Member
Re: Acronym\'s...........
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Here's an easy one. You are doing your preflight in a Cessna 172 for a day VFR flight. You discover that the stall warning horn is inoperative. May you legally fly the airplane?
[/ QUOTE ]Can I play? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
[/ QUOTE ]Only if you think you'll get it right this time. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif (only kidding)
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Here's an easy one. You are doing your preflight in a Cessna 172 for a day VFR flight. You discover that the stall warning horn is inoperative. May you legally fly the airplane?
[/ QUOTE ]Can I play? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
[/ QUOTE ]Only if you think you'll get it right this time. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif (only kidding)
MidlifeFlyer
Well-Known Member
Re: Acronym\'s...........
[ QUOTE ]
Under our MEL we had, I don't believe we could MEL the stall warning horn, but we could have a mechanic defer it, or defer anything else that wasn't on our MEL indefinitely. If you didn't have an MEL, you could have the inoperative equipment removed if possible or deactivated and placarded inoperative by a mechanic and deferred in your maintenance logs.
[/ QUOTE ]No. I'm not sure what the *sigh* was for since Kel was absolutely right.
Look at 91.213(d). In the no-MEL situation, there's are four groups of "always required" equipment that maintenance personnel cannot remove or deactivate and placard and defer and make it legal to take off. The C172 stall warning horn is one of them.
[ QUOTE ]
Under our MEL we had, I don't believe we could MEL the stall warning horn, but we could have a mechanic defer it, or defer anything else that wasn't on our MEL indefinitely. If you didn't have an MEL, you could have the inoperative equipment removed if possible or deactivated and placarded inoperative by a mechanic and deferred in your maintenance logs.
[/ QUOTE ]No. I'm not sure what the *sigh* was for since Kel was absolutely right.
Look at 91.213(d). In the no-MEL situation, there's are four groups of "always required" equipment that maintenance personnel cannot remove or deactivate and placard and defer and make it legal to take off. The C172 stall warning horn is one of them.
Re: Acronym\'s...........
Prepping for my IFR Checkride so here we go:
IFR (When to Report): MATURESCAN
Missed Approach
Altitude Changes
TAS changes of 5%/10kts whatever is greater
Unable to climb/descend 500/fpm
Reaching a hold/FAF
Exiting a hold/FAF
Safe (unforecast wx)
Comm failure
Aviation Failure
Navigation Failure
Position Reporting Requirements IPATTENS
Identification
Place
Altitude
Time
Type (aircraft)
Eta at next checkpoint
Next checkpoint after that
remarkS
Approach Self Briefing - MARTHA
Missed Approach Procedures
initial Altitude
Rate of Descent
Time (FAF to MAP/DH)
Heading - (Inbound Course)
missed approach Altitude (DH/MAP)
Prepping for my IFR Checkride so here we go:
IFR (When to Report): MATURESCAN
Missed Approach
Altitude Changes
TAS changes of 5%/10kts whatever is greater
Unable to climb/descend 500/fpm
Reaching a hold/FAF
Exiting a hold/FAF
Safe (unforecast wx)
Comm failure
Aviation Failure
Navigation Failure
Position Reporting Requirements IPATTENS
Identification
Place
Altitude
Time
Type (aircraft)
Eta at next checkpoint
Next checkpoint after that
remarkS
Approach Self Briefing - MARTHA
Missed Approach Procedures
initial Altitude
Rate of Descent
Time (FAF to MAP/DH)
Heading - (Inbound Course)
missed approach Altitude (DH/MAP)
roundout
VNAV monitor
Re: Acronym\'s...........
[ QUOTE ]
Look at 91.213(d). In the no-MEL situation, there's are four groups of "always required" equipment that maintenance personnel cannot remove or deactivate and placard and defer and make it legal to take off. The C172 stall warning horn is one of them.
[/ QUOTE ]
mark, where would one find this list of stuff? i've heard it mentioned before, but since 2 of the 3 places from which i've ever rented aircraft have MELs in place, i've never really pursued it that much. i think this is something most people misunderstand.
[ QUOTE ]
Look at 91.213(d). In the no-MEL situation, there's are four groups of "always required" equipment that maintenance personnel cannot remove or deactivate and placard and defer and make it legal to take off. The C172 stall warning horn is one of them.
[/ QUOTE ]
mark, where would one find this list of stuff? i've heard it mentioned before, but since 2 of the 3 places from which i've ever rented aircraft have MELs in place, i've never really pursued it that much. i think this is something most people misunderstand.
jonnyb
Well-Known Member
Re: Acronym\'s...........
[ QUOTE ]
I'm not sure what the *sigh* was for since Kel was absolutely right
[/ QUOTE ]
No kidding. What the hell is this guys problem? (Tallboy85)
Hey Tallboy, every time I read one of you're posts, they appear snide and you sound like a wise ass. If we are getting you wrong, then sorry, just use the freakin' "smilies" to get your demeanor across properly. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
[ QUOTE ]
I'm not sure what the *sigh* was for since Kel was absolutely right
[/ QUOTE ]
No kidding. What the hell is this guys problem? (Tallboy85)
Hey Tallboy, every time I read one of you're posts, they appear snide and you sound like a wise ass. If we are getting you wrong, then sorry, just use the freakin' "smilies" to get your demeanor across properly. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
MidlifeFlyer
Well-Known Member
Re: Acronym\'s...........
[ QUOTE ]
mark, where would one find this list of stuff? i've heard it mentioned before, but since 2 of the 3 places from which i've ever rented aircraft have MELs in place, i've never really pursued it that much. i think this is something most people misunderstand.
[/ QUOTE ] When I did the quiz last year, I got a number of incorrect answers from CFIs. FWIW, here is the answer I eventually posted:
==============================
The Answer
The answer ultimately depends on your airplane, but the chances are excellent you may =not= legally fly the airplane without a special flight permit under 91.213(e). For illustration, since so many of us are familiar with them, I'll refer to a generic Cessna 172.
My argument is that the emphasis on memorizing 91.205 is a bad thing. If your answer (even if you just thought about it but didn't respond) was "yes, because the stall warning horn is not listed in 91.205", please think about how learning TOMATO FLAMES or GOOSE A CAT has misled you.
Those who started with 91.213 rather than 91.205 were on the right track. Assuming that there is no MEL for the airplane, 91.213 tells us we cannot fly with =any= inoperative equipment unless two conditions are met:
1. The inoperative equipment is not one of those that is "always required" to work - 91.213(d)(2)
AND
2. If the equipment is not "always required", it must be removed or deactivated, placarded, and logged - 91.213(d)(3).
Starting with the first condition, there are 4 groups of "always required" equipment listed in 91.213(d)(2):
(a) Required by the airworthiness regulations in effect when the aircraft was certified. - 91.213(d)(2)(i)
(b) Marked required in the equipment list - 91.213(d)(2)(ii)
(c) Required by § 91.205 (or other Part 91 rule) - 91.213(d)(2)(iii) (Notice how the one we are forced to memorize is only a very small piece of the equation)
(d) Required to work by an AD - 91.213(d)(2(iv)
Group (a) can be tough. Regulations change. The current regulations for certification of normal, utility, acrobatic and commuter aircraft are under FAR Part 23, although older Cessna models were certified under the older Civil Air Regulations (CAR) Part 3. (If someone has a copy of the CAR, I'd love to see it!) But, if you take a look at FAR 23.207, you'll find that airplanes certified under Part 23 are required to have a stall warning system.
Fortunately, as we'll see, there is an overlap between group (a) and group (b).
Group (b) is pretty easy. Look in the Weight and Balance section of a modern POH and you'll find the equipment list. In the equipment list for Cessna 172 for example. You'll find the stall warning horn clearly marked "Required".
In terms of overlap with the (a) group, you probably won't be surprised to find that if a piece of equipment was required for certification, it also appears as "Required" in the equipment list.
Do you fly an older airplane without an marked equipment list? All is not lost. Each airplane has a Type Certificate Data Sheet (TCDS) that identifies the rules under which the airplane was certified. They are available online at www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgMakeModel.nsf/MainFrame?OpenFrameSet. The TCDS that applies to all 172 models through the Q series contains the requirement for a stall warning indicator.
We don't even have to get to group (c) (the one we are forced to memorize). And it wouldn't help us a bit if we did look at it.
Removal, deactivation and placarding under 91.213(d)(3) don't make any difference. Placarding only helps with equipment that isn't "always required". The stall warning horn =is= required.
BTW, for those who say, "I don't care if were legal to fly without it, =I= wouldn't", congratulations! That's really the most important step and the one that makes the difference between a pilot and someone just going for a ride.
==============================
[ QUOTE ]
mark, where would one find this list of stuff? i've heard it mentioned before, but since 2 of the 3 places from which i've ever rented aircraft have MELs in place, i've never really pursued it that much. i think this is something most people misunderstand.
[/ QUOTE ] When I did the quiz last year, I got a number of incorrect answers from CFIs. FWIW, here is the answer I eventually posted:
==============================
The Answer
The answer ultimately depends on your airplane, but the chances are excellent you may =not= legally fly the airplane without a special flight permit under 91.213(e). For illustration, since so many of us are familiar with them, I'll refer to a generic Cessna 172.
My argument is that the emphasis on memorizing 91.205 is a bad thing. If your answer (even if you just thought about it but didn't respond) was "yes, because the stall warning horn is not listed in 91.205", please think about how learning TOMATO FLAMES or GOOSE A CAT has misled you.
Those who started with 91.213 rather than 91.205 were on the right track. Assuming that there is no MEL for the airplane, 91.213 tells us we cannot fly with =any= inoperative equipment unless two conditions are met:
1. The inoperative equipment is not one of those that is "always required" to work - 91.213(d)(2)
AND
2. If the equipment is not "always required", it must be removed or deactivated, placarded, and logged - 91.213(d)(3).
Starting with the first condition, there are 4 groups of "always required" equipment listed in 91.213(d)(2):
(a) Required by the airworthiness regulations in effect when the aircraft was certified. - 91.213(d)(2)(i)
(b) Marked required in the equipment list - 91.213(d)(2)(ii)
(c) Required by § 91.205 (or other Part 91 rule) - 91.213(d)(2)(iii) (Notice how the one we are forced to memorize is only a very small piece of the equation)
(d) Required to work by an AD - 91.213(d)(2(iv)
Group (a) can be tough. Regulations change. The current regulations for certification of normal, utility, acrobatic and commuter aircraft are under FAR Part 23, although older Cessna models were certified under the older Civil Air Regulations (CAR) Part 3. (If someone has a copy of the CAR, I'd love to see it!) But, if you take a look at FAR 23.207, you'll find that airplanes certified under Part 23 are required to have a stall warning system.
Fortunately, as we'll see, there is an overlap between group (a) and group (b).
Group (b) is pretty easy. Look in the Weight and Balance section of a modern POH and you'll find the equipment list. In the equipment list for Cessna 172 for example. You'll find the stall warning horn clearly marked "Required".
In terms of overlap with the (a) group, you probably won't be surprised to find that if a piece of equipment was required for certification, it also appears as "Required" in the equipment list.
Do you fly an older airplane without an marked equipment list? All is not lost. Each airplane has a Type Certificate Data Sheet (TCDS) that identifies the rules under which the airplane was certified. They are available online at www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgMakeModel.nsf/MainFrame?OpenFrameSet. The TCDS that applies to all 172 models through the Q series contains the requirement for a stall warning indicator.
We don't even have to get to group (c) (the one we are forced to memorize). And it wouldn't help us a bit if we did look at it.
Removal, deactivation and placarding under 91.213(d)(3) don't make any difference. Placarding only helps with equipment that isn't "always required". The stall warning horn =is= required.
BTW, for those who say, "I don't care if were legal to fly without it, =I= wouldn't", congratulations! That's really the most important step and the one that makes the difference between a pilot and someone just going for a ride.
==============================
BoDEAN
New Member
Re: Acronym\'s...........
[ QUOTE ]
Prepping for my IFR Checkride so here we go:
IFR (When to Report): MATURESCAN
Missed Approach
Altitude Changes
TAS changes of 5%/10kts whatever is greater
Unable to climb/descend 500/fpm
Reaching a hold/FAF
Exiting a hold/FAF
Safe (unforecast wx)
Comm failure
Aviation Failure
Navigation Failure
Position Reporting Requirements IPATTENS
Identification
Place
Altitude
Time
Type (aircraft)
Eta at next checkpoint
Next checkpoint after that
remarkS
Approach Self Briefing - MARTHA
Missed Approach Procedures
initial Altitude
Rate of Descent
Time (FAF to MAP/DH)
Heading - (Inbound Course)
missed approach Altitude (DH/MAP)
[/ QUOTE ]
Keep them coming. Getting ready for my CFII ride
[ QUOTE ]
Prepping for my IFR Checkride so here we go:
IFR (When to Report): MATURESCAN
Missed Approach
Altitude Changes
TAS changes of 5%/10kts whatever is greater
Unable to climb/descend 500/fpm
Reaching a hold/FAF
Exiting a hold/FAF
Safe (unforecast wx)
Comm failure
Aviation Failure
Navigation Failure
Position Reporting Requirements IPATTENS
Identification
Place
Altitude
Time
Type (aircraft)
Eta at next checkpoint
Next checkpoint after that
remarkS
Approach Self Briefing - MARTHA
Missed Approach Procedures
initial Altitude
Rate of Descent
Time (FAF to MAP/DH)
Heading - (Inbound Course)
missed approach Altitude (DH/MAP)
[/ QUOTE ]
Keep them coming. Getting ready for my CFII ride
roundout
VNAV monitor
Re: Acronym\'s...........
i'm glad that you have the legalese background when dealing with all the FARs, mark. i could read 91.213 all day long (actually i've tried) and understand what's written but not understand what the book is trying to tell me. many thanks, and i doubt i speak for myself alone, for your understanding.
i'm glad that you have the legalese background when dealing with all the FARs, mark. i could read 91.213 all day long (actually i've tried) and understand what's written but not understand what the book is trying to tell me. many thanks, and i doubt i speak for myself alone, for your understanding.