Me with another question! I know in order to have a student solo between two airports within 25nm they need an endorsement to solo between them. If I do my student's initial solo at a field close by the home base field, they remain in the pattern, then I get back in the plane and fly home with them, do they need a separate endorsement if for example they're going to solo and remain in the pattern at the home field? I've gotten answers ranging from no they don't to "do another endorsement anyway to cover your butt." Insights?
A solo endorsement scenario.
- Thread starter JordanD
- Start date
scott_l
Well-Known Member
They will need an endorsement that you have given specific instruction as to the airfield, runway lengths etc. Until you give them a 90 day solo endorsement at which point they can leave the airport and come back (within 25). Any new airports need endorsements as to instruction given about them.
TwoTwoLeft
o- - - - - - -l
Hold on... What?
No, the student does not need a separate endorsement for a particular airport if you fly over with them, get out and let them fly in the pattern.
That airport could be 5, 26, or 3000nm away. It doesn't matter as long as you flew there with them in the M&M endorsed, and their 90 day is current.
Your initial 61.87(b) and (c) endorsements cover this. These endorsements are knowledge and airplane M&M specific, not airport specific. The only airport specific endorsements apply for SOLO cross country flights. The 61.93(b)(1) endorsement is to allow a student to depart the home airport solo, and land at another airport within 25nm.
scott_l
Well-Known Member
§ 61.87 Solo requirements for student pilots.
(a) General. A student pilot may not operate an aircraft in solo flight unless that student has met the requirements of this section. The term “solo flight” as used in this subpart means that flight time during which a student pilot is the sole occupant of the aircraft or that flight time during which the student performs the duties of a pilot in command of a gas balloon or an airship requiring more than one pilot flight crewmember.
(b) Aeronautical knowledge. A student pilot must demonstrate satisfactory aeronautical knowledge on a knowledge test that meets the requirements of this paragraph:
(1) The test must address the student pilot's knowledge of—
(i) Applicable sections of parts 61 and 91 of this chapter;
(ii) Airspace rules and procedures for the airport where the solo flight will be performed; and
(iii) Flight characteristics and operational limitations for the make and model of aircraft to be flown.
(2) The student's authorized instructor must—
(i) Administer the test; and
(ii) At the conclusion of the test, review all incorrect answers with the student before authorizing that student to conduct a solo flight.
(a) General. A student pilot may not operate an aircraft in solo flight unless that student has met the requirements of this section. The term “solo flight” as used in this subpart means that flight time during which a student pilot is the sole occupant of the aircraft or that flight time during which the student performs the duties of a pilot in command of a gas balloon or an airship requiring more than one pilot flight crewmember.
(b) Aeronautical knowledge. A student pilot must demonstrate satisfactory aeronautical knowledge on a knowledge test that meets the requirements of this paragraph:
(1) The test must address the student pilot's knowledge of—
(i) Applicable sections of parts 61 and 91 of this chapter;
(ii) Airspace rules and procedures for the airport where the solo flight will be performed; and
(iii) Flight characteristics and operational limitations for the make and model of aircraft to be flown.
(2) The student's authorized instructor must—
(i) Administer the test; and
(ii) At the conclusion of the test, review all incorrect answers with the student before authorizing that student to conduct a solo flight.
TwoTwoLeft
o- - - - - - -l
Those are just the content requirements of the pre-solo knowledge test for the initial solo. As far as endorsements go, there is no additional endorsement needed to allow a student to solo at another airport under the CFIs supervision.
If you really want to CYA, you could make a logbook ground entry referencing 61.87(b)(1)(ii) and what was covered in the preflight briefing. The preflight briefing should include a review of the airspace and the procedures of the new airport before you take the student there (the CFI should be doing this anyway).
TwoTwoLeft
o- - - - - - -l
Im not understanding. What does the 90 day have to do with heading out to the practice area?
scott_l
Well-Known Member
What I meant is I would write that I have given instruction for the specific airport that my student solos at. I feel like you would be opening yourself up to litigation if you're student had an endorsement for the home airport and then was soloing at another nearby and had an incident. It's just how I read the law but yes it's a more conservative approach.
TwoTwoLeft
o- - - - - - -l
Yeah, just some ground with a logbook entry is all you need. Unfortunately, we don't always get to have our students from day one. This is good practice if you inherit a post-solo student. Particularly, one new to the area.
In reality, by the time you feel the student is ready to solo at another airport under your supervision, chances are you have already covered the airspace and procedures at one point in their training. With my students, if the airport was local, they had already been there anyway with me. And there was a logbook entry showing that.
TwoTwoLeft
o- - - - - - -l
We're referring to a supervised solo from an airport other than the airport of origin.
At the point the pre-solo knowledge test has already been given. But there is the potential that the procedures and airspace for the new airport might not have been covered.
It's pretty much the same approach you would take, as far as the pre-solo knowledge test goes, for a student soloing in a different M&M. At the flight school we just give them a ground review. For independent work, I just go over aircraft performance, flight characteristics and systems, and make a ground entry in their log book referencing 61.87(b)(1)(iii).
nosehair
Well-Known Member
Right, I got that. My point is that all solos from any and all airports have to meet the 61.87(b) Knowledge test, or tests, as appropriate.
Exactly, which is why another test is required.
I know that you, and many others do this, and is not going to be a problem, probably. Even a POI might even approve that as meeting the requirement, and I don't think any one is going to come after your Flight Instructor Certificate for not doing a pre-solo test for each M&M, and authorized airport, or at least covering all in one.
But, I am imagining an attorney of the deceased in a courtroom asking you where is the written test proving the deceased actually wrote down answers to questions specific to the M&M or airport where the accident occurred.
61.87(a) says a student pilot may not operate a solo flight unless he has met all the following requirements...
(b) says he has to demonstrate (the operative word here is demonstrate) satisfactory aeronautical knowledge...
then (1)(i)(ii)(iii) breaks it down into the specifics,
then (2) says the instructor must administer the test and review all incorrect answers prior to the solo flight.
nowhere in this group of regulations can I find where it only applies to the first solo only.
So are you saying that you administer a pre-solo knowledge test for every airport the student pilot flies to on a solo cross-country? Students can fly to airports that they have never been to before. How would you CYA in this instance? I think it is pretty widely accepted that the pre-solo knowledge test is for the initial solo.
nosehair
Well-Known Member
61.93 x/c training and solo review/ sign-off for each airport demonstrate the required knowledge for that purpose.