A Bad Time for a Career Change?

S

SteelMike

New Member
I'm a newbie around here, so I apologize if this has been discussed ad naseum.

I'm 25, college educated, working a desk job. It stinks. I have my SEL and I'm thinking about switching careers, going to a flight academy, getting my ATP, and heading for the airlines.

Here's the question: will there be a job for me when I graduate? Is the airline industry headed for disaster? It seems like like every major carrier is considering bankruptcy, mergers, or layoffs, and oil just keeps going up and there's no good news from the transportation sector.

Also, if I join up now, I hear I'll be the last of a long line of this hiring boom, relegated to low-man-on-the-totem-pole for the length of my career just because so many people have been hired recently.

Here are the things that get me so excited. 1. Flying (but does it get boring?), 2. Flexible schedule and fewer days worked per month, 3. Decent pay, although I would wager that you could easily make more in business. Do I have it right? What are your most and least favorite parts of your flying career?

Btw, a couple of unrelated questions: Why do people poo-poo working for the regionals? Also, does this type of non-merit-based seniority bug the crap out of you?

Thanks a ton for your time,
Mike
 
My .02....trying to make a switch to the airlines right now would be like buying $100,000 worth of .com start-up stocks in early 2000.

You have found the right place to get your questions answered. If you are serious about jumping in and getting your ratings right now, I recommend you spend several hours on getting the current 'pulse' on where things in the industry stand right now from this forum. Things are not good right now at all. There are at least 1,000 guys that have been hired by the regionals in the past year or so on here that will probably be getting furloughed in the next 6 months. At least, that is how I read the current situation.

Welcome to the forums. Not sure you are going to get much love from this first post, but at least you have came here before calling the 1-800 number for ATP and listening to a sales pitch that you could not refuse. Stick around and read. Go to the Career Changer section and read there. Good luck in whatever you decide.
 
Welcome!

To begin with, ALL jobs stink. That's why it's called work. Otherwise they'd be called fun. It sucks that one has to work at all, but that's the way it is. My point is this: Do not try to find your happiness at work. I don't look at work as something that makes me happy or not happy. Work is what supports you so that you can do the other things in life that you do enjoy. I'd rather be at work 8 or 9 hours a day, make good money, and enjoy my time away from work, then do a job I enjoy, make lousy money, and not be able to enjoy my off time

Stay away from a flight academy. You can get the same training at your local FBO. It will be cheaper. You can do it at your own pace. And you can go home every night instead of sleeping in some dorm. And you're not committed. You can walk away any time you like, or take a break between ratings.

Your first job will likely be entry level. probably as an instructor, and the pay will be low. You probably won't see any decent money until your second year at a regional, or perhaps if you go to a freight outfit. But there will be a job for you. But remember that the vast majority of pilots started out the same way as you. A certain amount "luck" is required to make it to the top, but remember that luck is where preparation meets opportunity. The pilots who have the jobs you covet have them because they were prepared when opportunity presented itself. Many pilots are not prepared when opportunity knocks, and many more never had opportunity. Remember this.

The airline industry is not headed for disaster. It IS a disaster. Think about it. This business has existed in a deregulated environment for the past 30 years. It has existed in a regulated environment for 50 years prior to that. And in all that time, no one has yet figured out how to make money at it. Ask yourself this question. Would you make an effort to enter any other industry with a performance record like that?

The good news is that for the foreseeable future, there will be a need for air transportation. But since no one can figure out how to make money at it for any reasonable length of time, its odds on that you will change airlines a few times in your career.

Join now or join later; you will still start out at the bottom. The only difference is how many people will be hired after you, and how many people hired before you will move on. The former determines whether or not you will get laid off, and the latter determines the quality of your life and net worth of your career. A pilot hired in 1996 could probably get to a Captain seat in 5 years. A pilot hired in 2001 spent the next 5 years on furlough. Nothing you can do about it except be aware of it. It does seem likely that, will all the hiring of the mid-90's, and now all the downsizing, you will be in the co-pilots seat for a long time.

As does any activity you do repetitively day in and day out, flying will get boring. The first time you take off on an early morning departure with the sun peaking over the horizon is exciting. The second time is too. By the 500th time you'll probably wish you were still in bed.

Your schedule is only as flexible as those above you on the seniority list allow. Number 1 gets first choice, number two gets second best, and number 100 gets what the other 99 leave. You will be working lots of weekends and holidays throughout the majority of your career. You will likely have more days off than the average office worker, but you will not work less. The pay is good. Within 3 years of starting at a regional or a major you can expect to me making anywhere between 45K to 75K

People poo poo the regionals because everyone has their eyes on the prize of flying a 737 or 747. Why work for 75K a year when you can make 175K? Pilots are a strange breed. They have a tendency to let someone else determine their happiness. A guy at Air Tran can be perfectly happy with his job until he learns that a United guy makes a few bucks more, or has more days off; then all of a sudden he hates his job.

Personally I don't like the seniority system, but when you have hundred or thousands of employees all in the same classification, how else can you determine who flies what or who works when? Seniority seems to be the one system everyone can agree on, because it guarantees everyone will eventually get their turn.

There you have it: my take. Worth every penny you paid for it.
 
Well, ask yourself a question.

If airlines are laying people off, what's the rush to get all your ratings? There will be thousands of people before you who they will rehire before you get a call.

So, you can spend a lot of money very quickly to get something that will qualify you for a job that isn't available right now.

Or you can do it slow and pay as you go.
 
I am in no way qualified to answer any of your questions since I am in roughly the same position. I had an office job, was miserable, I always loved aviation so I decided to take the leap. Where my decision leads is anyones guess.

One thing I will say though is many people here tend to focus on the commercial aspect of aviation. While it may be the most visible portion of professional aviation, it is by no means the only avenue. Corporate and charter are also viable options. You may not be flying a 747 across the pond, but you will still be making a great living doing something you enjoy.

Good luck with your decision.
 
To begin with, ALL jobs stink. That's why it's called work. Otherwise they'd be called fun. It sucks that one has to work at all, but that's the way it is. My point is this: Do not try to find your happiness at work. I don't look at work as something that makes me happy or not happy. Work is what supports you so that you can do the other things in life that you do enjoy. I'd rather be at work 8 or 9 hours a day, make good money, and enjoy my time away from work, then do a job I enjoy, make lousy money, and not be able to enjoy my off time
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Amen' Brutha
 
Wow, thanks for the great posts and the great information (and for not flaming my newbie-ness). The seniority system does make sense, considering that the majority of pilots are equally qualified - how would you make judge who flew "better"? The lack of self-determination, however, freaks me out.

Even though flying might get boring, I suppose it's one thing to wish you were still in bed, and another to be so depressed you can't get out of bed. I'm still considering the change.

Too bad it isn't a more rosy picture! Man, I wish the industry were strong and it was an obvious decision! Wouldn't life be so much easier?

By the way, I've heard that FBOs can be cheaper before, but it doesn't make sense - wouldn't the "bulk" buy from the academy save a bunch of money rather than piece-mealing it together from an FBO?
 
SteelMike said:
Wow, thanks for the great posts and the great information (and for not flaming my newbie-ness). The seniority system does make sense, considering that the majority of pilots are equally qualified - how would you make judge who flew "better"? The lack of self-determination, however, freaks me out.

Even though flying might get boring, I suppose it's one thing to wish you were still in bed, and another to be so depressed you can't get out of bed. I'm still considering the change.

Too bad it isn't a more rosy picture! Man, I wish the industry were strong and it was an obvious decision! Wouldn't life be so much easier?

By the way, I've heard that FBOs can be cheaper before, but it doesn't make sense - wouldn't the "bulk" buy from the academy save a bunch of money rather than piece-mealing it together from an FBO?
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The short answer to your question is no. Generally you can get your ratings at an FBO for half the price or less of the Academies.
 
SteelMike said:
I'm 25, college educated, working a desk job. It stinks. I have my SEL and I'm thinking about switching careers, going to a flight academy, getting my ATP, and heading for the airlines.
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It won't be as easy as that an ATP requires 1500TT which isn't super easy to come by. Not cheap either. I think if you had you goal to be a pilot and not an 'airline pilot' switching careers wouldn't be bad. I personally wouldn't think of going to an airline right now if I was starting out.

Here's the question: will there be a job for me when I graduate? Is the airline industry headed for disaster? It seems like like every major carrier is considering bankruptcy, mergers, or layoffs, and oil just keeps going up and there's no good news from the transportation sector.
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There will always be a "job" for you. That being said that job might be Great Lakes where you are making less than the check out kid at Best Buy. How low will you go to put on a polyester uniform and call your self an airline pilot? If you are thinking airlines think about being stuck at a regional for a long time if you are just getting started now. Look at regional FO pay and ask yourself if you could live on that till you are 30+ or if you want to?

Also, if I join up now, I hear I'll be the last of a long line of this hiring boom, relegated to low-man-on-the-totem-pole for the length of my career just because so many people have been hired recently.
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The boom already boomed. Not necessarily, but if you think your career has to be straight to an airline you might be setting yourself up for that.

Here are the things that get me so excited. 1. Flying (but does it get boring?), 2. Flexible schedule and fewer days worked per month, 3. Decent pay, although I would wager that you could easily make more in business. Do I have it right? What are your most and least favorite parts of your flying career?
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1. Yes, Very and stressful too!
2. Not likely you'd be at the bottom on reserve hopefully you wouldn't have to commute.
3. Decent pay if you are a senior CA maybe. 15-35k year as an FO I don't call that decent personally.


Btw, a couple of unrelated questions: Why do people poo-poo working for the regionals? Also, does this type of non-merit-based seniority bug the crap out of you?
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Because you getting treated poorly compared to most non aviation jobs. You don't make a lot of money to make up for the amount of time spent away from home. Senority is the way it is and always has been that way. How do you place merit on aviation any way? At a given company you all do the same job. If you get there safe and legal how can you say pilot A is better than pilot B. If it was that way this industry would be 10,000 times worse. We are all cogs in the machine working for the man burning his gas.

Thanks a ton for your time,
Mike
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You are welcome. Think about wanting to be a pilot and not just an airline pilot investigate all the opportunitties that may be out there if you can't get to an airline immediatly.
 
Mike,

Similar position to you.... I think it's easy to get that shiny jet syndrome and go do it all at once, but like anything else, this isn't a good idea in my mind. Fly locally, live life, and ride the wave to where it takes you. I've found there is a ton of stuff to do that will let you fly outside the airlines. I think this industry is so dynamic that you can't "lock in" on what the future will hold...just go with the flow and see where you'll end up.
 
Mike I'm in the same situation as you. But the way the economy is heading right now I can't in good conscience make the leap into aviation. At least not at a full time level. In the meantime though I'm gonna stay at my desk job, continue to fly, build hours and slowly work on my ratings. I'm 38 and should probably be in more of a hurry but it just doesn't make any sense to go into debt for this industry. Ultimately I got into aviation cause I've wanted to fly ever since I was 10 and now I do. If I ever make $$ at it then bonus!
 
Thanks again for all the answers and info.

I suppose life is just always full of trade-offs and catch-22s, so I'll keep plugging away at it and see where it takes me. I guess there's really no silver-bullet answer for me that will solve all the problems, but I thank y'all for the perspective and advice.

M
 
SteelMike said:
By the way, I've heard that FBOs can be cheaper before, but it doesn't make sense - wouldn't the "bulk" buy from the academy save a bunch of money rather than piece-mealing it together from an FBO?
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The schools like Jet U and DCA will quote you $65K-$75K, and I have heard it will be much much more than that. Piece-mealing it at an FBO can be done for $25K-$30K. Call any local flight school (except American Flyers), and they should be able to itemize every rating for you from PPL - CFI. If you do make the jump, just think how much happier you will be if you don't carry that extra debt! You will find alot of posts on this board from pros telling how cyclical this industry is, so what's the hurry to get your ratings at a time like this? By the time you complete it at your FBO things may pick back up by then.
 
I just say this. Life is too short not to follow your dreams. So follow your dreams!

1) If your dream is to be a pilot, go for it.
2) If your dream is to be in residential real estate, go for it.
3) If your dream is to be wealthy, go for it (but 1 and 2 are not options for you in this case... look into mortician or finanical planner or executive direct hire recruiter at an agency)

Good luck in what ever you decide.
 
aifiji said:
The schools like Jet U and DCA will quote you $65K-$75K, and I have heard it will be much much more than that. Piece-mealing it at an FBO can be done for $25K-$30K.
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I think an emphasis has to be put on the word "CAN." I did ALL of my training at an FBO and it still cost me around $50k when all was said and done. Of course, I did it over a 2 year period. But I am not even including housing in that total.

One other thing to realize is that most FBO Flight schools don't have multi engine aircraft. Five years ago in Kansas City, every flight school had a twin. There is only one other flight school in KC now besides us with a twin.

And I am glad you didn't group us in with Jet U and DCA. CPS has always stuck by the quoted price. It is a rarity these days.....

Michael
 
Take your time.

Pay as you go.

If you must generate debt, generate as little as possible.

Further, take some time - spend a GREAT deal of time here reading what those who are employed at 121 or 91/135 flight departments have to say about the industry. You may read what you perceive to be negative information. That negative information is the lifeblood of the industry and will provide you the imagery of what occurs in this extremely volatile industry.

Good luck
 
Unless your well off and very secure financially now is not the time to get yourself into debt. The airlines are already in a disaster. I dont see things getting better anytime too soon. They will recover and there will be some "casualties of war". I do think the industry will be a tad thinned out as far as the amount of airlines around making it a more competetive industry.
 
This industry is cyclical, yes. However, it seems to get weaker after each cycle. To me, this isn't just wait it out and see. This industry will never get back to what it was. Get your ratings and enjoy the ride. Try shooting for charter/fractional instead of regional/airline. The new way of traveling someday is going to be these "marquis" cards, or some other fractional type thing. Everyday there are charter companies being born where it's an even better deal for some of the " low end" rich folks:) (had some of those at Flops):laff:Some fracs have internships, etc. I know CS and NJA do. I enjoyed my time at the fracs, and I was at Flight Options for 7 yrs! Now, i'm (kinda) at peace with myself, and persuing other interests.
 
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