787 struck by the lightning gods

Did I read that right? They only installed the copper mesh in the areas "likely" to be struck? I've had strikes in some pretty damn unlikely places (like the underside of the fuselage) I've seen what a lightning strike does to a composite nosecone... I'd sure as heck like to have the whole airframe protected from that sort of thing.
 
Did I read that right? They only installed the copper mesh in the areas "likely" to be struck? I've had strikes in some pretty damn unlikely places (like the underside of the fuselage) I've seen what a lightning strike does to a composite nosecone... I'd sure as heck like to have the whole airframe protected from that sort of thing.

It's a zoning issue, need some paper and pen to explain. Basically high intensity zones (those which we expect to be attachment or exit points) you need a high conductivity. Unfortunately composites don't conduct well, thus the copper mesh. Farther into the airframe, the zones back off in intensity and it is not required.

If memory serves, SAE 5412 and 5414 talk about it. Lightning testing is idealized remember, not really field stuff.
 
I guess there are enough composite parts running around out there already, not getting routinely melted off the airframe to make me feel warm and fuzzy.
 
I guess there are enough composite parts running around out there already, not getting routinely melted off the airframe to make me feel warm and fuzzy.

Hehe, well you would be surprised how many composite parts on aircraft are sacrificial (winglets for example). The wing, say on a 787, is not obviously, and that's where we need the warm and fuzzy feelings to be centered at right now. I guess we're getting there, but I don't think Boeing would tell people, "Hey the wing is contaminating again and the copper mesh explosively evaporated, from lack of cross section, so we're thinking there's gonna be a redesign." Airlines are happy to delay orders on these things anyway, so I don't think there's any rush.

Boeing folks have had to reinvent the wheel and it's caused many delays, however they are getting there. It's gonna be a long while longer before the plane is complete.
 
I thought YOU were the expert. Hmmm...

I guess if there were burn spots, a negative. If parts missing, a positive.

Glad I was able to make you chuckle.

Nah man, your the one with all the awards for your article. I absolutely subscribe to your opinions that I don't know what I'm talking about on this subject. I'm always happy for a chuckle.

Burn spots will occur on either polarity due to coulomb count and "action integral", especially due to this aircraft being a composite. I remember on earlier "discussions" you were referencing your own experience with metal aircraft and that it is possible to tell some differences in damage, though without accurate measuring equipment (not done since the F-106B in the 80's) I'm not willing to accept those sort of conclusions based on my experience in the field. It is common for the exit spot to have larger holes than the entry point. It is common to have *pocking across the entire airframe (up to 100 burns per event in some cases) after the event has concluded. Also, depending on the aircraft's certification, pieces like winglets (or antenna) which are described as sacrificial, will exit the aircraft in pieces regardless of polarity if there is enough "action integral" and shockwave. All other structures, meant to stay onboard so to speak, will be certified in either polarity equally so that shouldn't be a telltale sign of anything. If something does fly off, non-sacrificial, then most of us would suspect a design flaw.

The problem, if you'll remember, that we ran into last time, it that from a certification standpoint it is assumed the positive and negative strike will be the same. So what may be a "reveal" for you, in the characteristic of its polarity, is for many of us trivial. Since we can not prove for certain one is greater than the other, or that one effect is characteristic of a certain polarity, I wouldn't speculate what damage would indicate either way. You'd need a lifetime, I feel, of research which is not available. Also, since that research didn't pay any of my bills, I didn't get much into it. However, every engineer in this particular field has theories they subscribe to; be it "ball lightning", or the jet's and sprite origin. The simple fact remains so much of this is unknown

Parts missing at this point in the program, (also) may not indicate any sort of polarity since the aircraft is not fully certified. It could be some sort of unanticipated failure.

Another problem, I hate saying it like problem = bad, but from an investigative standpoint a composite aircraft will have clues much different from your metal aircraft. since carbon-reinforced plastics (composites) reduces conductivity previously expected and relied on from traditional aircraft designs, effects of the event are newer to the observer. The composite material acts like a resistor, although lets face it, it IS a flying resistor, and that creates heat. The heat generated will, in some cases, delaminate the composite. Since heat is ambivalent to polarity you may not find the results you are looking for. Also, since no aircraft flying today has any Hall Effect transformers on their bundles measuring polarity, you would not have any real evidence.

The only exception to the above, may be the "superstroke" phenomenon. Fortunately since aircraft lightning strikes are aircraft triggered (and therefore, by its nature, less intense), that "superstroke" is assumed to be tossed in the garbage for certification requirements.

*I call it pocking, a lot of folks call it pitting, I intend to reference the same event calling it a pock mark

I'm writing a damn essay here. I gotta stop. I barely proof read that but I imagine no one is going to read all this so I'm done.

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TLDR
 
Nah man, your the one with all the awards for your article. I absolutely subscribe to your opinions that I don't know what I'm talking about on this subject. I'm always happy for a chuckle.

Don't remember saying you were wrong. I thought we ended with agreement on the subject considering your experience in certification.

I'm writing a damn essay here. I gotta stop. I barely proof read that but I imagine no one is going to read all this so I'm done.

imgres
TLDR

I read it. Good work. If nothing else, anyone flying a small composite or a homebuilt should know they probably have zilch in the ability to take a strike (not that they can choose other than to steer clear of conditions where lightning is present or likely).

As for being the expert, not me. I just ask questions of the experts and try to break it down for the reader.
 
Don't remember saying you were wrong. I thought we ended with agreement on the subject considering your experience in certification.



I read it. Good work. If nothing else, anyone flying a small composite or a homebuilt should know they probably have zilch in the ability to take a strike (not that they can choose other than to steer clear of conditions where lightning is present or likely).

As for being the expert, not me. I just ask questions of the experts and try to break it down for the reader.

I always took it as an agree to disagree.

I don't know of any homebuilts, off the top of my head, that have an ifr cert. I didn't get into homebuilts. The ifr cert is generally when you have to prove your ability to take a strike, not just engineer a possible way for it still to fly. For instance, some aircraft engineer on a homebuilt could say, "well we put this thin gauge pipe through the airplane, wing to wing, with a few 90 degree angles in it and we are assuming the lightning will pass through there." Sure, it's day VFR, fine that might work. Now if it turns out the gauging was so lightweight that the magnetic effects of lighting actually crumpled the hollow pipe, and every time it bends 90 degrees the lightning decides to jump across to another length of pipe creating a huge pneumatic jackhammer (essentially a bomb in the middle of the plane) from the shockwave and the airplane goes down in flames... its fine, it was just a day VFR cert.

I've never been clear on the whole experimental/homebuilt cert process. Some guys tell me that they can take them IFR and they are IFR cert. I love RV's, I love me some EZ's, I won't take them IFR personally. Experimental aircraft, to my knowledge, don't have to work through the part 23 (or 25 obviously) IFR cert, so I don't think they can take a strike. Though aviation is a big world and someone with experimental cert work should speak up if there is any.
 
I've never been clear on the whole experimental/homebuilt cert process. Some guys tell me that they can take them IFR and they are IFR cert. I love RV's, I love me some EZ's, I won't take them IFR personally. Experimental aircraft, to my knowledge, don't have to work through the part 23 (or 25 obviously) IFR cert, so I don't think they can take a strike. Though aviation is a big world and someone with experimental cert work should speak up if there is any.

My understanding is once the FAA signs the airplane off, IF the builder has in his ops limits something about until the limits are completed, it must fly day VFR. Once that fly-off is complete, IF equipped for IFR it can legally fly IFR. Seems a twist of words and like you, I don't think any of it is part 23. And all the guys I talked to doing background for the lightning article said NO homebuilts, NO composite gen-av airplanes and NO composite sailplanes were certified to take a strike. The famous incident was in Germany where a strike 'blew up' (their words) a sailplane. The fliers were wearing chutes and used them.

I have a friend with an RV-10 he built. He has more equipment in it than I flew with in the A320. Legal to fly IFR? Yes. Certified? I don't know.
 
My understanding is once the FAA signs the airplane off, IF the builder has in his ops limits something about until the limits are completed, it must fly day VFR. Once that fly-off is complete, IF equipped for IFR it can legally fly IFR. Seems a twist of words and like you, I don't think any of it is part 23. And all the guys I talked to doing background for the lightning article said NO homebuilts, NO composite gen-av airplanes and NO composite sailplanes were certified to take a strike. The famous incident was in Germany where a strike 'blew up' (their words) a sailplane. The fliers were wearing chutes and used them.

I have a friend with an RV-10 he built. He has more equipment in it than I flew with in the A320. Legal to fly IFR? Yes. Certified? I don't know.

Ick. Well, God bless them, but I just can't see myself shooting off into IFR without some cert assurances. We spend so much time conformity checking each aircraft for new avionics, to just throw stuff in... eh. Well anyhow, thanks for the info.
 
Ick. Well, God bless them, but I just can't see myself shooting off into IFR without some cert assurances. We spend so much time conformity checking each aircraft for new avionics, to just throw stuff in... eh. Well anyhow, thanks for the info.

Good for you. A man's gotta know his limits.
 
Ick. Well, God bless them, but I just can't see myself shooting off into IFR without some cert assurances. We spend so much time conformity checking each aircraft for new avionics, to just throw stuff in... eh. Well anyhow, thanks for the info.

I wouldn't hesitate to fly a "conventional" metal airplane around storms either factory built or homebuilt. They will both basicly perform the same in a lightning strike.

Factory built composite's I'd be carefull. They say that the mesh will conduct the million volts around the airplane without damaging the structure, but I'm still nervous.

Homebuilt composite, stay far away.
 
I wouldn't hesitate to fly a "conventional" metal airplane around storms either factory built or homebuilt. They will both basicly perform the same in a lightning strike.

Factory built composite's I'd be carefull. They say that the mesh will conduct the million volts around the airplane without damaging the structure, but I'm still nervous.

Homebuilt composite, stay far away.

You are looking at it from a bonding and structural standpoint (which may or may not be correct depending how much cross section you have), not an electrical or avionics standpoint. From a certification standpoint they do perform differently. I already know what the responses will be to that, it's fine, I really don't mind. I draw the line in a different place than many of you.
 
not an electrical or avionics standpoint.

All of the avionics I'll put in my airplane are TSO units just like a Cessna.

I honestly don't think ANY light airplane is well protected against a real world lightning strike. The "certification" process for Cessnas and Pipers is mostly for show IMHO. A major cloud to ground lighting bolt will blast right through your radios without a pause.

Transport catagory airliners are another story.
 
All of the avionics I'll put in my airplane are TSO units just like a Cessna.

I honestly don't think ANY light airplane is well protected against a real world lightning strike. The "certification" process for Cessnas and Pipers is mostly for show IMHO. A major cloud to ground lighting bolt will blast right through your radios without a pause.

Transport catagory airliners are another story.

Well many opinion differ from yours at the FAA and from cert folks, but they're all out to get your money and can't be trusted. While many times the avionics do not need to be changed airplane to airplane they do need to be tested for conformity and for zonal challenges. For instance someone running a bundle within 2in of the groundplane but the groundplane they chose to run it across is the main channel for the electrical event. Furthermore, an aircraft can be zoned differently from the airplane that was TSO'ed, meaning your new set you threw in may not come close to protecting you. Small IFR aircraft are protected, very well, from lightning strikes if you actually go through the process. There are different requirements for Part 23 and Part 25 aircraft. Of course I don't know exactly what you mean by light, but I assume you are using some sort of correlation to known properties of Part 23 and Part 25 aeroplanes.

A major cloud to ground lightning bolt, the "granddaddy" that is sometimes spoken about, is going to fry a transport aircraft airliner too. The Feds have nailed down higher than average numbers they want aircraft to be used on aircraft cert; and those numbers are based on private and government experiments on aircraft from many moons ago. Granddaddy strikes have been noted on ground installation equipment for sure, and I've been told on some floating equipment too but I don't know much about that.
 
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