61.31 (I) Tailwheel endorsement cat/ class question

CFI A&P

CFI A&P

Exploring the world one toilet at a time.
Had this scenario occur this week:

I'm giving instruction in a Cub towards a tailwheel endorsement. However the "student" was prior foreign military. He used his military experience to earn a FAA ATP/MEL at Flight Safety without any single engine privileges.

So I know that the tailwheel endorsement doesn't specify class, single vs multi privileges. Earned in a Cub and the endorsement is good for a Beech 18 (other ratings and endorsements aside)

So it seems the reverse is true. This "student" just can't exercise SEL privileges at all. Anyone else run into this ?
 
No, but I'm not sure what the question is.

You can give him the endorsement in the Cub, and it would be good for the Beech (all other, etc).

If he wants to solo the cub, he'll need the tail wheel endorsement and 'To act as PIC in solo operations...'.
 
NickH said:
No, but I'm not sure what the question is.

You can give him the endorsement in the Cub, and it would be good for the Beech (all other, etc).
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Can I give him a tailwheel endorsement in a SEL airplane, even though he doesn't have any single engine privileges? That was the question, should have been more clear.

He does want to solo, but there are other obstacles to consider.

After some research, We decided to keep flying, and let him earn the endorsement. He will just have to exercise it in a Beech 18, DC3, C46... Until he gets SEL on his Wright Brothers membership card.
 
CFI A&P said:
Can I give him a tailwheel endorsement in a SEL airplane, even though he doesn't have any single engine privileges? That was the question, should have been more clear.
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You can give him an endorsement for tailwheel ASEL.
You can also give him an endorsement to ACT PIC ASEL as the sole occupant.

He only needs a current flight review, his certificate and medical to do so then.
 
CFI A&P said:
Can I give him a tailwheel endorsement in a SEL airplane, even though he doesn't have any single engine privileges? That was the question, should have been more clear.

He does want to solo, but there are other obstacles to consider.

After some research, We decided to keep flying, and let him earn the endorsement. He will just have to exercise it in a Beech 18, DC3, C46... Until he gets SEL on his Wright Brothers membership card.
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Why not do his SEL add-on?
 
When the FAR want parts of the requirements to be category and class, they say so. For example, the FR reg says that the FR needs to be given "in an aircraft for which that pilot is rated." There's nothing in the 61.31 endorsement requirements that say that the pilot has to be rated or otherwise privileged for the aircraft in which he or she earns the endorsement.

FWIW (probably not much) that leads me to guess that it doesn't matter from a strict regulatory standpoint.
 
drunkenbeagle said:
You can give him an endorsement for tailwheel ASEL.
You can also give him an endorsement to ACT PIC ASEL as the sole occupant.

He only needs a current flight review, his certificate and medical to do so then.
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You could also renew the solo endorsement every 90 days for the Cub while he's working on his SE add-on, however long it takes
 
The tail wheel endorsement isn't a SEL or MEL specific rating. You can give him the endorsement, he will only be able to use it in MEL aircraft though. If you look at the 61.31(i) and the endorsement from AC 61-65D, it does not specify class of aircraft, just specifies that training has been given.
 
Mike H said:
You could also renew the solo endorsement every 90 days for the Cub while he's working on his SE add-on, however long it takes
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The PIC endorsement would last forever, unless you put some restriction on it. It isn't a 90 day solo endorsement, since he is already a pilot.
 
drunkenbeagle said:
The PIC endorsement would last forever, unless you put some restriction on it. It isn't a 90 day solo endorsement, since he is already a pilot.
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His rating is ME only, however, so in order to continue to fly the Cub solo, he'd need to either add a SE rating to his certificate, or keep getting the solo endorsement renewed every 90 days
 
Mike H said:
His rating is ME only, however, so in order to continue to fly the Cub solo, he'd need to either add a SE rating to his certificate, or keep getting the solo endorsement renewed every 90 days
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Incorrect, you can not give him an 61.87(n) endorsement.

You would give him a 61.31(d)(2) endorsement:

I certify that Mr Military Pilot has received the training required by 61.31(d)(2) to serve as PIC in an airplane single engine land. I have determined that he is prepared to serve as PIC in that J3.

Signed CFI/s/ date/CFI#
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You can't give him a 61.87 endorsement, because 61.87 only applies to holders of student pilot certificates. He obviously does not and will not have one. His rating in A-MEL is not what matters here, what matters is that he already holds a commercial pilot certificate.
 
I would strongly suggest that should you give this endorsement you add a limitation for 90 days only, or similar. Otherwise he could be flying on your endorsement ten years form now.
 
Mike H said:
His rating is ME only, however, so in order to continue to fly the Cub solo, he'd need to either add a SE rating to his certificate, or keep getting the solo endorsement renewed every 90 days
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Those saying he doesn't need 90 day endorsements are correct.

To see for yourself, go to the reg that deals with 90-day endorsements and see whom it applies to:

==============================
§ 61.87 Solo requirements for student pilots.

61.87(n) Limitations on student pilots operating an aircraft in solo flight. A student pilot may not operate an aircraft in solo flight unless that student pilot has received:
(1) An endorsement from an authorized instructor on his or her student pilot certificate for the specific make and model aircraft to be flown; and
(2) An endorsement in the student's logbook for the specific make and model aircraft to be flown by an authorized instructor, who gave the training within the 90 days preceding the date of the flight.

***

(p) Limitations on flight instructors authorizing solo flight. No instructor may authorize a student pilot to perform a solo flight unless that instructor has--
(1) Given that student pilot training in the make and model of aircraft or a similar make and model of aircraft in which the solo flight is to be flown;
(2) Determined the student pilot is proficient in the maneuvers and procedures prescribed in this section;
(3) Determined the student pilot is proficient in the make and model of aircraft to be flown;
(4) Ensured that the student pilot's certificate has been endorsed by an instructor authorized to provide flight training for the specific make and model aircraft to be flown; and
(5) Endorsed the student pilot's logbook for the specific make and model aircraft to be flown, and that endorsement remains current for solo flight privileges, provided an authorized instructor updates the student's logbook every 90 days thereafter.
==============================

Whatever else he may be, an ATP with a ME rating is most definitely not a "student pilot."
 
drunkenbeagle said:
True, but he is also flying on his own certificate.
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Yes. That bears repeating. 10 years from now, or 10 minutes from the endorsement, the FAA certificated pilot will answer to any FAA action just like you and me.

The ONLY reason for a nervous sign-off is that it does not comply with all applicable regulations, including making certain the the endorsee is fully aware that he alone is the responsible pilot in command.

An instructor sign-of is not an instructor's invite to hold him responsible, other than insuring all required FAA training and documentaion is completed.

Relax, and enjoy the work.
 
I make the distinction that as a ATP-ME only, the pilot would necessarily be a SE student, since he's not otherwise rated in ASEL. Otherwise, your Tailwheel PIC endorsement is effectively giving the pilot a ASEL rating without his taking a practical test given by a qualified examiner.
 
Mike H said:
I make the distinction that as a ATP-ME only, the pilot would necessarily be a SE student, since he's not otherwise rated in ASEL. Otherwise, your Tailwheel PIC endorsement is effectively giving the pilot a ASEL rating without his taking a practical test given by a qualified examiner.
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Wrong. You can give any endorsement to a certificate holder.

I had aerotow and pic endorsements in gliders before I had a glider rating.

You can absolutely give a taildragger endorsement.
 
nosehair said:
Yes. That bears repeating. 10 years from now, or 10 minutes from the endorsement, the FAA certificated pilot will answer to any FAA action just like you and me.

The ONLY reason for a nervous sign-off is that it does not comply with all applicable regulations, including making certain the the endorsee is fully aware that he alone is the responsible pilot in command.

An instructor sign-of is not an instructor's invite to hold him responsible, other than insuring all required FAA training and documentaion is completed.

Relax, and enjoy the work.
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Totally with nosehair on that, should not be hard to tell a military guy that it is his butt on the line though.
 
Surfneric said:
The tail wheel endorsement isn't a SEL or MEL specific rating. You can give him the endorsement, he will only be able to use it in MEL aircraft though. If you look at the 61.31(i) and the endorsement from AC 61-65D, it does not specify class of aircraft, just specifies that training has been given.
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The answer to the OP's question....
 
drunkenbeagle said:
You can absolutely give a taildragger endorsement.
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I never said he couldn't give the tailwheel endorsement- only that the endorsee can't use that endorsement for solo or PIC flight in a class of airplane (single engine) he's not otherwise rated in. It's no different than if a pilot, rated in single engine airplanes only, managed to get a tailwheel endorsement in a Beech 18 and then wanted to claim PIC prvlges in multi-engine airplanes on that basis.
 
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