200 Below B - Help me win a bet.

minitour

New Member
Today, we're told to cross such and such a fix at 11 and 250. Then we're given further descent.

Does that clearance constitute an assignment of 250 knots? I queried approach and he seemed confused why I asked if he still needed us at 250. We were about to pop out the bottom of the B, so I wanted to make sure they weren't trying to assign us 250.

Nothing came of it, he said "no...speed your discretion" and we slowed to 200 and landed with no other questions. I'm just wondering if that "cross __ at ___ speed" constitutes an assignment to maintain that speed until further instructed or if it's just to cross that fix at that speed.

We've got a beer on this one. What say you?

-mini
 
I don't think so, because many times there could be a crossing speed at say 11,000 at 280 kts... it is understood that you will slow yourself to 250kts before 9,999.


Also, there are two different phraseologies:

"CROSS <ALT> AT <SPEED>" and "CROSS <ALT> AT AND MAINTAIN <SPEED>".
 
I don't think so, because many times there could be a crossing speed at say 11,000 at 280 kts... it is understood that you will slow yourself to 250kts before 9,999.
That was my logic but the boss man says unless they further reduce his speed, he can go 250 to numbers because it was "assigned".

I dunno. "Slow to .74" is a speed restriction, but I don't think they want you at .74 across the marker. :eek:

-mini
 
Sorry, I edited my post like a ninja. But if you look in the ATC guidebook thingy there are 2 phraseologies -- why would they have one extra one for cross at and maintain when "cross at" by itself means the same thing? They wouldn't, so it doesn't mean the same thing.


For example, observe this STAR into DFW: http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/1003/06039JUMBO.PDF


It shows both of the phraseologies -- is it using them interchangeably? I don't think so.
 
Sorry, the ATC 7110, I was wrong -- there is only one listed phraseology for a speed crossing restriction:


d. Specify combined speed/altitude fix crossing restrictions.
PHRASEOLOGY-
CROSS (fix) AT AND MAINTAIN (altitude) AT (specified speed) KNOTS.
EXAMPLE-
“Cross Robinsville at and maintain six thousand at two three zero knots.”
REFERENCE-
FAAO JO 7110.65, Para 2-4-17, Numbers Usage. FAAO JO 7110.65, Para 4-5-7, Altitude Information.

with these notes:

NOTE-
1. A pilot operating at or above 10,000 feet MSL on an assigned speed adjustment greater than 250 knots is expected to comply with 14 CFR Section 91.117(a) when cleared below 10,000 feet MSL, within domestic airspace, without notifying ATC. Pilots are expected to comply with the other provisions of 14 CFR Section 91.117 without notification.
2. Speed restrictions of 250 knots do not apply to aircraft operating beyond 12 NM from the coastline within the U.Flight Information Region, in offshore Class E airspace below 10,000 feet MSL. However, in airspace underlying a Class B airspace area designated for an airport, or in a VFR corridor designated through such as a Class B airspace area, pilots are expected to comply with the 200knot speed limit specified in 14 CFR Section91.117(c). (See 14 CFR Sections 91.117(c) and 91.703.)
 
4-4-12. Speed Adjustments

a. ATC will issue speed adjustments to pilots of radar-controlled aircraft to achieve or maintain required or desire spacing.

b. ATC will express all speed adjustments in terms of knots based on indicated airspeed (IAS) in 10 knot increments except that at or above FL 240 speeds may be expressed in terms of Mach numbers in 0.01 increments. The use of Mach numbers is restricted to turbojet aircraft with Mach meters.

c. Pilots complying with speed adjustments are expected to maintain a speed within plus or minus 10 knots or 0.02 Mach number of the specified speed.

d. When ATC assigns speed adjustments, it will be in accordance with the following recommended minimums:

1. To aircraft operating between FL 280 and 10,000 feet, a speed not less than 250 knots or the equivalent Mach number.

NOTE-
1. On a standard day the Mach numbers equivalent to 250 knots CAS (subject to minor variations) are:
FL 240-0.6
FL 250-0.61
FL 260-0.62
FL 270-0.64
FL 280-0.65
FL 290-0.66.

2. When an operational advantage will be realized, speeds lower than the recommended minima may be applied.

2. To arriving turbojet aircraft operating below 10,000 feet:

(a) A speed not less than 210 knots, except;

(b) Within 20 flying miles of the airport of intended landing, a speed not less than 170 knots.

3. To arriving reciprocating engine or turboprop aircraft within 20 flying miles of the runway threshold of the airport of intended landing, a speed not less than 150 knots.

4. To departing aircraft:

(a) Turbojet aircraft, a speed not less than 230 knots.

(b) Reciprocating engine aircraft, a speed not less than 150 knots.

e. When ATC combines a speed adjustment with a descent clearance, the sequence of delivery, with the word "then" between, indicates the expected order of execution.

EXAMPLE-
1. Descend and maintain (altitude); then, reduce speed to (speed).

2. Reduce speed to (speed); then, descend and maintain (altitude).

NOTE-
The maximum speeds below 10,000 feet as established in 14 CFR Section 91.117 still apply. If there is any doubt concerning the manner in which such a clearance is to be executed, request clarification from ATC
.

f. If ATC determines (before an approach clearance is issued) that it is no longer necessary to apply speed adjustment procedures, they will inform the pilot to resume normal speed. Approach clearances supersede any prior speed adjustment assignments, and pilots are expected to make their own speed adjustments, as necessary, to complete the approach. Under certain circumstances, however, it may be necessary for ATC to issue further speed adjustments after approach clearance is issued to maintain separation between successive arrivals. Under such circumstances, previously issued speed adjustments will be restated if that speed is to be maintained or additional speed adjustments are requested. ATC must obtain pilot concurrence for speed adjustments after approach clearances are issued. Speed adjustments should not be assigned inside the final approach fix on final or a point 5 miles from the runway, whichever is closer to the runway.

NOTE-
An instruction to "resume normal speed" does not delete speed restrictions that are contained in a published procedure, unless specifically stated by ATC, nor does it relieve the pilot of those speed restrictions which are applicable to 14 CFR Section 91.117.


g. The pilots retain the prerogative of rejecting the application of speed adjustment by ATC if the minimum safe airspeed for any particular operation is greater than the speed adjustment.

NOTE-
In such cases, pilots are expected to advise ATC of the speed that will be used.

h.c) and (d). IN SUCH CASES, THE PILOT IS EXPECTED TO SO INFORM ATC. Pilo Pilots are reminded that they are responsible for rejecting the application of speed adjustment by ATC if, in their opinion, it will cause them to exceed the maximum indicated airspeed prescribed by 14 CFR Section 91.117(a), (ts operating at or above 10,000 feet MSL who are issued speed adjustments which exceed 250 knots IAS and are subsequently cleared below 10,000 feet MSL are expected to comply with 14 CFR Section 91.117(a).

i. Speed restrictions of 250 knots do not apply to U.S. registered aircraft operating beyond 12 nautical miles from the coastline within the U.S. Flight Information Region, in Class E airspace below 10,000 feet MSL. However, in airspace underlying a Class B airspace area designated for an airport, or in a VFR corridor designated through such as a Class B airspace area, pilots are expected to comply with the 200 knot speed limit specified in 14 CFR Section 91.117(c).

j. For operations in a Class C and Class D surface area, ATC is authorized to request or approve a speed greater than the maximum indicated airspeeds prescribed for operation within that airspace (14 CFR Section 91.117(b)).

NOTE-
Pilots are expected to comply with the maximum speed of 200 knots when operating beneath Class B airspace or in a Class B VFR corridor (14 CFR Section 91.117(c) and (d)).


k. When in communications with the ARTCC or approach control facility, pilots should, as a good operating practice, state any ATC assigned speed restriction on initial radio contact associated with an ATC communications frequency change.

ATC cannot assign a speed higher then that listed in 91.117 ATC is not the administrator.
 
Good question.

Let's put the "about to pop below the bravo" part aside for a second(because the FAR's superceded the instruction). At my facility we use that exact clearance (Cross XXXXX at and maintain 11000 and 250 knots) whenever we are in a specific operation. And until you just asked the question I never really considered that speed assignment sticks until the 1) clearance is issued for the approach, 2)you pop below the B or3) another speed is issued.

I could almost guarantee you the controllers are expecting you to choose your own speed once descent below 10000 is issued. Good job getting clarification.
 
...speed assignment sticks until the 1) clearance is issued for the approach, 2)you pop below the B or3) another speed is issued.
So "technically" 250 until we needed to slow to make sure we were 200 or less as we came out the bottom of the Bravo?

-mini
 
"Center, Airplane 101 canceling IFR and squakin VFR. See ya"

Then do a 3:1 drop in so you can maintain 250 to a 1 mile final.

Do it.
 
So "technically" 250 until we needed to slow to make sure we were 200 or less as we came out the bottom of the Bravo?

-mini


By the letter of the law I would say so. I think that is setting an aircraft up though. Let's say I have you on a base 1/2m inside the Bravo shelf then give a turn back to the downwind for spacing, who can expect you to go from 250 to 200 in 1/2 mile? But like I said my facility does it every day and never once have I EXPECTED an aircraft to maintain 250kts until I cleared it at 10 miles if I kept it in the B and no other speed was given. 99% of the time reductions to 250 for arrivals above 10000 are because a descent is imminent and/or sequencing is happening with aircraft below 10000 and SOP/LOA dictates as such. In essence what is meant is "Slow down now you are going to be descending soon and we need the descent as soon as we give it" The intention is not to say go as fast as possible below 10 until I say otherwise.

I am going to bring this topic up tonight at work to see what everyone else thinks. I will report back.

Like I said before this is a good question and brings up a pretty big area of ambiguity.
 
"Center, Airplane 101 canceling IFR and squakin VFR. See ya"

Then do a 3:1 drop in so you can maintain 250 to a 1 mile final.

Do it.

:D
You squawk VFR on final to where I work, than exceeding the VFR corridor speed limit below Bravo will be the least of your worries.
 
The question I have for you airline guys is how do you know your going below the Bravo? How would say an overseas carrier pilot say, flying into JFK, know he/she was vectored below Class B?
 
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