1500 rule in possible jeopardy

[Seggy]

It proves that you can bring some capabilities to the table of the crew environment, and are ready for that test now. --->



Agreed. But....... if you can't do your job as an individual.........can't carry your own weight, or don't bring anything to the crew table ability-wise; how exactly are you helping the crew again?

If you can't pass test #1 above, you have no business advancing to test #2

You can pass test #1 but if the person you are flying with shuts down the wrong engine as you are advancing to test #2, test #1 was a moot point. Also, was test #1 really realistic?

The goal is to get the aircraft on the ground safely. It encompasses multiple tests you are dealing with as a crew.

 

[MikeD]

To start, I am an outsider, no doubt, however, I am not impressed with the Air Force's version of CRM/TEM.

Also, in my mind, there are some holes in my mind about his commentary about the Air Force accidents I highlighted earlier that were never responded to.

I am not doubting his ability or the fact that he has been crew flying for a while. Not at all. However, I don't agree with his continued emphasis on the individual instead of the crew.

Crew flying is crew flying. It's not magically done different in the military in terms of the flight deck.

Now, are there problems with the system of Safety in the military? There are. Are there issues where undue influence, or even inaction, from so-called leadership personnel can (and has) been factors that have had cascading effects on flight safety in general, and personnel issues in particular? Yes, sadly there has been.

But at the end of the day, CRM is CRM. How Hacker has flown with his WSO in his back seat and gotten the job of not just flying the plane done, but getting the mission done in the process, is no different than how other planes are flown.

A C-5 pilot/FE, a KC-10 pilot/FE, an F-15E pilot/WSO, etc, etc.......all learn the same concepts of CRM in-cockpit work, as you do.

 

[MikeD]

You can pass test #1 but if the person you are flying with shuts down the wrong engine as you are advancing to test #2, test #1 was a moot point. Also, was test #1 really realistic?

The goal is to get the aircraft on the ground safely. It encompasses multiple tests you are dealing with as a crew.

Let me clarify.

-If you can't pass test #1, you have zero business advancing to test #2.

-Passing test #1 however, is no guarantee of one's ability at accomplishing test #2.

Test #1 is merely a prerequisite. If allows you to advance. Test#2 is it's own concept entirely.

In a crew aircraft, you have to be proficient at both. You have to bring something to the table. then you have to be able to apply that something to the crew.

 

[Seggy]

Let me clarify.

-If you can't pass test #1, you have zero business advancing to test #2.

-Passing test #1 however, is no guarantee of one's ability at accomplishing test #2.

Test #1 is merely a prerequisite. If allows you to advance. Test#2 is it's own concept entirely.

In a crew aircraft, you have to be proficient at both. You have to bring something to the table. then you have to be able to apply that something to the crew.

In a crew aircraft if you are the PNF and poo hits the fan you don't need to pass test #1, the initial handling of the V1 cut, you go right to test #2 what happens after the cut. Obviously, yes, you should be able to handle test #1, yes, no doubt, however test #2 is how you react to managing the emergency, is what you skip to in a way.

 

[MikeD]

In a crew aircraft if you are the PNF and poo hits the fan you don't need to pass test #1, the initial handling of the V1 cut, you go right to test #2 what happens after the cut. Obviously, yes, you should be able to handle test #1, yes, no doubt, however test #2 is how you react to managing the emergency, is what you skip to in a way.

Are you permanently a PNF? No. You do PF as well as PNF duties. You have to be proficient at doing both.

You need to pass test #1 in order to be eligible to "try out" for a crew in the first place. Thats test #2.

If you can't pass test #2, which encompasses both PF as well as PNF duties and being able to be proficient at them, then you don't make the team.

If you can't pass test #1, then you don't ever make it to the tryouts.

That's why you need both in a crew environment.

My point is that one does beget the other, but not necessarily vice-versa. Someone can be a great PNF, but if they can't do the PF job proficiently, then they're not bringing adequate game to the team. And hence are just as much a detriment as someone who is a great PF, but a lousy PNF.

 

[Seggy]

Are you permanently a PNF? No. You do PF as well as PNF duties. You have to be proficient at doing both.

In the actual real world emergency you will either be the PF or the PNF.

You need to pass test #1 in order to be eligible to "try out" for a crew in the first place. Thats test #2.

If you can't pass test #2, which encompasses both PF as well as PNF duties and being able to be proficient at them, then you don't make the team.

If you can't pass test #1, then you don't ever make it to the tryouts.

That's why you need both in a crew environment.

My point is that one does beget the other, but not necessarily vice-versa. Someone can be a great PNF, but if they can't do the PF job proficiently, then they're not bringing adequate game to the team. And hence are just as much a detriment as someone who is a great PF, but a lousy PNF.

That describes it in the training program. However, as you know in the sim you can't test for every single possible test. Poo hits the fan in the real world with scenarios that folks have never seen. So the individual will be judged if they get the plane on the ground safely in a possibly one off scenario. Once again this points to how one manages this scenario. Most likely this management of the scenario could have very little with flying the airplane. It will deal with how you interact with the crew.

 

[MikeD]

In the actual real world emergency you will either be the PF or the PNF.

Correct. Same as where I come from. You're one or the other in the cockpit.

That describes it in the training program. However, as you know in the sim you can't test for every single possible test. Poo hits the fan in the real world with scenarios that folks have never seen. So the individual will be judged if they get the plane on the ground safely in a possibly one off scenario. Once again this points to how one manages this scenario. Most likely this management of the scenario could have very little with flying the airplane. It will deal with how you interact with the crew.

Of course. But we're talking in terms basic scenarios and basic jobs of the PF and PNF. Because you can do either job at either time, you have to be able to perform the task at hand, as well as be able to manage the scenario; consistent with whether you're the PF or the PNF at the time.

In fact, when it comes to the whole "one begets the other" idea, I'd venture to say that in order to effectively manage a particular scenario, you'd have to first be able to perform it well and understand it well yourself.

However the reverse isn't necessarily true: just because someone can perform and understand X task well in an emergency, doesn't mean they possess the aptitude, ability, or even experience level yet, to manage it effectively. That may require further training, especially if it's new to them. These are the guys who may be great pilots, but not yet fully developed in CRM.