121 and 91 operations

MOGuy424

MOGuy424

Well-Known Member
Just wondering if you are currently employed at a 121 operation are you still able to fly part 91 operations as much as you like? I believe the 1,000, 100, 30 restriction on flight hours only apply to commercial operations.

My question comes from an opportunity to fly with a friend that has a king air and just would like to have someone come along on his longer trips for company to keep him awake, which would allow me to log up some TPIC on my days off from the airlines.

Thnx!
 
Would you be logging this time? The FAA considers logged time as compensation in many cases in which case it would be commercial flying.
 
Well yes, that would be the whole premise, to get some TPIC. So how do 121 pilots who own their own planes or rent airplanes get around this? I would not be taking any monetary compensation for it, just the experience. Like I said it is a friend not a business that this would be for.
 
Generally (no legal opinions on specific things), it's 121.489 that deals with the addition of other flight time to Part 121 minimums. According to that reg, your 121 time plus "other commercial flying" can't exceed 121 time requirements. There are a couple of Chief Counsel interpretations that "commercial" means as a paid pilot or instructor.

For example, the 2012 Rodriguez letter tells us that you can flight instruct, although not if you're paid for it.

But "as much as you like?" The very recent Agramonte letter reminds us that there's always 91.13, so I guess flying to the point of getting too tired might still be a problem.
 
SpiraMirabilis said:
Would you be logging this time? The FAA considers logged time as compensation in many cases in which case it would be commercial flying.
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Can't take this to the bank (weirder things have happened), but I wouldn't worry about it. "Flight time as compensation" has a very specific purpose that doesn't really fit this type of a situation. Otherwise, you'd have safety pilots in Cessna 152s being violated left and right for violating restrictions on compensation.
 
MidlifeFlyer said:
Can't take this to the bank (weirder things have happened), but I wouldn't worry about it. "Flight time as compensation" has a very specific purpose that doesn't really fit this type of a situation. Otherwise, you'd have safety pilots in Cessna 152s being violated left and right for violating restrictions on compensation.
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The Sommer 2010 letter says:
Generally, accrual of flight time is compensation and the FAA does not enter into a case by-case analysis to determine whether the logging of flight time is of value to a particular pilot...
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However, there is a letter of interpretation circa 2012 about the issue you bring up (safety pilots) to a William Trussel (don't have a link) and basically they say since a safety pilot is a required crewmember it can't be considered compensation. Specifically it is dealing with the PPL "pro-rata share" portions in FAR 91 but I imagine it would translate to the definition of commercial flying as it regards to definitions of commercial flying.

I would link these but the FAA site is all FUBAR and I can't link letters of interpretation at the moment.
 
SpiraMirabilis said:
The Sommer 2010 letter says:
.
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No it doesn't. Sommer deals with the receipt of various types compensation in exchange for providing flying services that would otherwise require a commercial pilot certificate.

Which was the point of my comment. I'm not aware of even one case or opinion letter where flight-time-as-compensation it was applied to anything other than as a payment substitute in a situation where a pilot or operator did not have a commercial pilot certificate or a commercial operator's certificate (as appropriate) before engaging in an activity requiring one. Are you? That's all I meant by "specific purpose."

So for example, I doubt a private pilot is violating the pro-rata sharing of a flight permitted by 61.113 when he also logs the flight (thereby receiving more than his pro rata share through the "flight time compensation".

I'd also be surprised if a rule that is designed to ensure that Part 121 pilots are not exhausted from meeting obligations (which usually comes with payment) would turn on whether the pilot logs the activity or not. "Flight time as compensation" is a way of making sure that something commercial is done by appropriately rated pilots and operators it doesn't change non-commercial activity into commercial activity. At least that's my personal opinion (not a legal one).

BTW, here's the Sommer and Trussel letters. If you have a link collection that's not working I know the reason - the FAA recently changed the mappings so links older than maybe a month or two don't work anymore. You'll have to re-link them. I had to do that with mine.
 
Most 121 Ops Manuals prohibit outside flying unless it is approved by the chief pilot. Some places it's pretty easy to get a waiver, some places it will never happen
 
BobDDuck said:
Most 121 Ops Manuals prohibit outside flying unless it is approved by the chief pilot. Some places it's pretty easy to get a waiver, some places it will never happen
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There are always other considerations like this.

Best bet for MOGuy424, especially since it implicates 121 ops, is to get a reliable opinion from someone other than SOGTI.
 
If you are flying private 91 for yourself, you can flying as much as you want. If you receive money for flying, then you are limited to 30/7 100/1000 and you need to keep track with your 121 time. Ops manuals say that because they don't want up calling in saying you're going to time out because you are doing flying on the side. I wouldn't worry about asking anyone, just make sure you're legal.
 
BobDDuck said:
Most 121 Ops Manuals prohibit outside flying unless it is approved by the chief pilot. Some places it's pretty easy to get a waiver, some places it will never happen
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If we could have one non-monetary thing change this year at my employer, I'd want the blanket prohibition dropped.
 
BobDDuck said:
You could always try to negotia.... oh wait... nevermind.
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We do have people 'negotiating'. Their updates are few, infrequent, and make the standard SKW CRJ pilot assumption that the Brasilia won't exist next year.

"HAY GUISE! I WANT MORE MONEY TOO!"
 
Autothrust Blue said:
We do have people 'negotiating'. Their updates are few, infrequent, and make the standard SKW CRJ pilot assumption that the Brasilia won't exist next year.

"HAY GUISE! I WANT MORE MONEY TOO!"
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"Negotiating" vs. 'negotiating' vs. negotiating.

Very different things.
 
BobDDuck said:
Most 121 Ops Manuals prohibit outside flying unless it is approved by the chief pilot. Some places it's pretty easy to get a waiver, some places it will never happen
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Any flying? You mean like your own 152? I don't think thats true because there are airline pilots who fly GA who work all across the airline spectrum. And if its not commercial flying the prohibition would make no sense.
 
Louie1975 said:
Any flying? You mean like your own 152? I don't think thats true because there are airline pilots who fly GA who work all across the airline spectrum. And if its not commercial flying the prohibition would make no sense.
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Commercial flying. But the FAA has said that receiving flight time is considered compensation so unless you own the plane you may have an issue.
 
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