121 Alternate legality question

89-LX

89-LX

Well-Known Member
I understand that you cannot depart without an alternate if the weather conditions dictate that you need one. Today, we had a little issue, where when we pushed back from the gate, we didn't need an alternate. But after an hour on the ground, the TAF changed and we were required to have an alternate. Dispatcher stated that since we were already away from the gate, alternate wasn't needed.

Does anyone have any kind of case law regarding this in the past, as what the definition of departed is per the FAA in a 121 setting? My understanding, is departed is off the ground, not pushed back.
 
Been a while since I've flown 121

I think this is the Reg you are looking for, or at least part of it.

§121.619 Alternate airport for destination: IFR or over-the-top: Domestic operations.
(a) No person may dispatch an airplane under IFR or over-the-top unless he lists at least one alternate airport for each destination airport in the dispatch release. When the weather conditions forecast for the destination and first alternate airport are marginal at least one additional alternate must be designated. However, no alternate airport is required if for at least 1 hour before and 1 hour after the estimated time of arrival at the destination airport the appropriate weather reports or forecasts, or any combination of them, indicate—

(1) The ceiling will be at least 2,000 feet above the airport elevation; and

(2) Visibility will be at least 3 miles.

(b) For the purposes of paragraph (a) of this section, the weather conditions at the alternate airport must meet the requirements of §121.625.

(c) No person may dispatch a flight unless he lists each required alternate airport in the dispatch release.
Click to expand...

I could see an argument that you would need to return to the gate for fuel, if needed to meet fuel requirements for the added alternate. It really only makes sense, so that of course means there is some convoluted rule about being pushed back and departed and what you legally need for fuel. If it was my "command" I would be returning for whatever fuel was required, if any.
 
I can't find the case right now, but the FAA has gone after a crew (and the dispatcher) for taking off with out an alternate after a long sit on the ground where the weather deteriorated. Obviously, in the normal 10 - 20 minute taxi environment a dispatcher (or crew) wouldn't be expected to pull new weather but after sitting for an hour or more, the FAA expected they should. @Houston?
 
Learn something new every day. I didn't know the word "dispatch" was in the above reg. I always thought you had to get an alternate if the forecast for your airport required one even in flight. We often have enough extra gas to designate alternate fuel out of what was extra or additional on the release. I was doing ONT to RFD the other day with no alternate required. It started snowing and wx went way down and the winds made some of the runways unusable. I didn't even think about it but when we saw the new forecast the F/O said "wanna get an alternate". Dispatch gave us ORD, for which the fuel burn came out of our extra fuel. If the dispatcher pulled this reg out and said we didn't need an alternate I would have taken a look at our fuel situation and the weather at nearby airports. I would mentally come up with my own alternate and plan. At that point I would decide if it was safe to proceed. If I wasn't comfortable with the fuel situation I would ask the dispatcher where he wants the jet put down short of the destination for more gas.
 
When in doubt, I'd say it is always better to err on the side of safety. What some dispatchers don't understand in the real-world sense is that weather is dynamic and we adjust to the weather as it changes. I am not trying to get down on the ADX trade, but I find that they come at the problem of operations from a very different angle sitting in a room with no windows...Often the problem is a corporate culture issue...Seen this before, and it's no bueno!
 
BobDDuck said:
I can't find the case right now, but the FAA has gone after a crew (and the dispatcher) for taking off with out an alternate after a long sit on the ground where the weather deteriorated. Obviously, in the normal 10 - 20 minute taxi environment a dispatcher (or crew) wouldn't be expected to pull new weather but after sitting for an hour or more, the FAA expected they should. @Houston?
Click to expand...

Sorry, but I can't be of any help there.

There is a database of all NTSB enforcement decisions, but it only includes the ones that have gone to the full board. If it comes to a conclusion one way or another before it gets to that stage, then it's not in the searchable database.

http://www.ntsb.gov/alj/o_n_o/query.aspx
 
Doesn't your FOM say something along the lines of cannot continue if you don't have fuel for alternate if wx goes down also?
 
ClarkGriswold said:
Doesn't your FOM say something along the lines of cannot continue if you don't have fuel for alternate if wx goes down also?
Click to expand...

FOM says departed, but upon searching for the definition of departed, I cannot find anything. Departed from the ground, or gate? We were already out at that point, so that's why I'm trying to find better guidance. ASAP'ed/ASRS it anyways to be on the safe side.
 
That is just a stupid dispatcher then, you blocked out the flight is ONNNNNNNNN. You work at 9E right?
 
Once you are out on ACARS, flight is considerd under way and departed, at least that is my interpretation. Dispatcher is not in charge, PIC is! There should be no argument about adding an alternate and/or more gas.
 
ClarkGriswold said:
That is just a stupid dispatcher then, you blocked out the flight is ONNNNNNNNN. You work at 9E right?
Click to expand...

Negative, EV.

CRJDriver said:
Once you are out on ACARS, flight is considerd under way and departed, at least that is my interpretation. Dispatcher is not in charge, PIC is! There should be no argument about adding an alternate and/or more gas.
Click to expand...

We decided to go without it, but we still had a good 40 minutes or so from the time we found out about needing an alternate, to actually departing. The big question is, what is the FAA interpretation on this? Is departed in their eyes off the ground, or from the gate. Thus why I'd rather be safe than sorry, ASAP/ASRS it, and ask for guidance from the company/FAA on the legal interpretation.

Total time from pushback to takeoff in LGA....2:19. No snow in the TAF/forecast, and began to snow. No deicing trucks ready nor anyone there able to do the deicing. Became a cluster. But my 1:44 flight ended up being 3:22, so no complaints from me.
 
89-LX said:
I understand that you cannot depart without an alternate if the weather conditions dictate that you need one. Today, we had a little issue, where when we pushed back from the gate, we didn't need an alternate. But after an hour on the ground, the TAF changed and we were required to have an alternate. Dispatcher stated that since we were already away from the gate, alternate wasn't needed.

Does anyone have any kind of case law regarding this in the past, as what the definition of departed is per the FAA in a 121 setting? My understanding, is departed is off the ground, not pushed back.
Click to expand...
Legality aside, does it make any sense to blast off without alternate fuel when the latest weather reports or forecasts, or combinations thereof, indicate conditions will require an alternate airport?

(no)

89-LX said:
We decided to go without it, but we still had a good 40 minutes or so from the time we found out about needing an alternate, to actually departing. The big question is, what is the FAA interpretation on this? Is departed in their eyes off the ground, or from the gate. Thus why I'd rather be safe than sorry, ASAP/ASRS it, and ask for guidance from the company/FAA on the legal interpretation.
Click to expand...
Where I work, anytime a flight deviates more than one hour from schedule, the PIC "must inform" the dispatcher. Usually what happens is we wind up getting new paperwork with new weather, and possibly different alternate airport(s) or fuel loads as a result. (Unless we took an extra few hundred pounds to start with, we're probably going back to the gate for gas at that point anyway, so yeah.)
 
Next time dispatcher wants to argue, have him look at our FOM, Ch 4-Flight Planning.

"If an alternate is required and is not listed on Dispatch release, an amendment to release must be made."
 
Autothrust Blue said:
Legality aside, does it make any sense to blast off without alternate fuel when the latest weather reports or forecasts, or combinations thereof, indicate conditions will require an alternate airport?
Click to expand...

That kind of depends on where you are going, how close the weather is to mins and if it is looking like it will get worse.

If I am flying in to an airport that has 4 ILS approaches, all of which get me down to 200 AGL and all of the sudden the weather goes 2 1/2 miles and 1200 OVC, I'm not too concerned about needing an alternate.

If I am flying to an airport with one GPS approach that gets me down to 1 mile and 500 AGL and all of the sudden the weather goes to 1 /14 and 600 OVC, I am certainly going to get the fuel to get to an alternate.

Remember, the 1-2-3 rule was put in place when most places had an NBD approach and that was it.
 
Did the wx get down to like 1.8 broken or did it get down to like 1/4 mile? How did you find out about the taf change?
 
CRJDriver said:
Next time dispatcher wants to argue, have him look at our FOM, Ch 4-Flight Planning.

"If an alternate is required and is not listed on Dispatch release, an amendment to release must be made."
Click to expand...

Trust me, I agree. But also go down farther....

"Amended Dispatch Release 14 CFR Part 121 does not prohibit a flight from continuing towards its destination without an alternate once the flight has departed and the weather conditions deteriorate to the point that an alternate would have been required for dispatch."

The issue comes in with departed. Departed from the gate, or departed from the ground. My interpretation is departed the ground, not the gate. Captain and dispatcher were sold on gate. Was the weather bad enough for me to warrant stopping operations right there and returning as the FO, no, but it's more of a legality situation.

Kingairer said:
Did the wx get down to like 1.8 broken or did it get down to like 1/4 mile? How did you find out about the taf change?
Click to expand...

TAF changed to 10SM and OVC020. Actual on arrival I believe was higher ceiling, but like 6SM vis. Our original arrival time had us arriving more than 1 hour before the change over. But with a 2 hour delay on the ground, I realized that it would now put us in the window of needing an alternate then.
 
Don't work 121, but IMO, once you have started moving under your own power your flight has "departed" for administrative purposes. Otherwise you would be required to check all pre-takeoff stuff just prior to liftoff in order to ensure compliance. You log flight time from block, many get paid from block out...at some point the flight must be "departed" and I would argue that it doesn't have to do with when you takeoff.
 
flyboy6585 said:
Don't work 121, but IMO, once you have started moving under your own power your flight has "departed" for administrative purposes. Otherwise you would be required to check all pre-takeoff stuff just prior to liftoff in order to ensure compliance. You log flight time from block, many get paid from block out...at some point the flight must be "departed" and I would argue that it doesn't have to do with when you takeoff.
Click to expand...

But then couldn't you argue that with the ground delay, you new arrival time now requires an alternate as you know it would have been needed if you feel within that time to begin with?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top