110 hour Instrument Commercial and Multi

timmytootall

Well-Known Member
Hey, I'm in South Florida looking for a place to continue training, and I found a flight school advertising a 110 hour Instrument commercial and multi program. It's all 141 and uses the Cessna Pilot CDs. Talked to a rep of the program who told me his curriculum was approved because it fulfills the FAR requirements without the required 250 total time. Has anyone heard of a similar program? Any thoughts?
 

dpgtime

Well-Known Member
There is Ari Ben and ATP but I don't know if they are 141. I don't think ATP is 141.
 

timmytootall

Well-Known Member
It's a much smaller school than those two, just wondering if a 110 hour program for Instrument, Commercial, and Multi is not absurd.
 

bdhill1979

Gone West
It's a much smaller school than those two, just wondering if a 110 hour program for Instrument, Commercial, and Multi is not absurd.
For a 141 school that is not unheard of, though I would expect a LOT of simulator time, and probably costs an arm and a leg.
 

CoffeeIcePapers

Well-Hung Member
Considering the commercial 141 program is 120 hours, I would be skeptical, but I have heard of this rule being modified.
 

minitour

New Member
You could have a program with simulator time substituted for some of the flight requirements or alternatively, you could have a special curricula approved under 141.

My commercial course (at Airman Flight School) wasn't 120 hours. Not even close. Lots of solo and a bit of dual.

The upsides for the school:
Lower cost to student normally = more students which = more quantity which can = higher profits

The downside for the school:
Absolutely zero chance of getting examining authority so you're sending every student with a DPE or fed. Some students don't care for this (heaven forbid taking a ride with a DPE or fed and not a check instructor) which can = fewer students which = less money.

If I could do it again, I would have done all of my training part 61 anyway. Not that there's anything wrong with 141, but I wish I had more flexibility to go where I wanted to and fly more "real world IFR" prior to entering ... well, the "Real world" and having to do it with peeps in the back or students in the left seat.

-mini
 

riot shields

Well-Known Member
For a 141 school that is not unheard of, though I would expect a LOT of simulator time, and probably costs an arm and a leg.
I'm very skeptical of this training. Tim's a friend of mine and I can't find much information on this sort of training. I just want to make sure that everyone understands the way they have it on paper...
all you need is a private (obviously 35 hours min)
in 110 additional hours (which INCLUDES sim time + 52 hours SE and 20 ME)

so you say this is not unheard of? 0 hours to Commercial Pilot with Instrument and ME in 145 hours (minimums met of course) ? Where was THIS when I was getting my licenses? I am not saying it's impossible, but I'm very skeptical. what other flight schools might you know of that have this sort of training? I called this school 3 days in a row with no response, just "ill give him a message again". And being denied the ability to talk to any available flight instructor, chief pilot, or owner.

dont get me wrong, i hope this is real, i'd love for my friend to finish these ratings in almost 1/2 the time it took me!!
 

bdhill1979

Gone West
I'm very skeptical of this training. Tim's a friend of mine and I can't find much information on this sort of training. I just want to make sure that everyone understands the way they have it on paper...
all you need is a private (obviously 35 hours min)
in 110 additional hours (which INCLUDES sim time + 52 hours SE and 20 ME)

so you say this is not unheard of? 0 hours to Commercial Pilot with Instrument and ME in 145 hours (minimums met of course) ? Where was THIS when I was getting my licenses? I am not saying it's impossible, but I'm very skeptical. what other flight schools might you know of that have this sort of training? I called this school 3 days in a row with no response, just "ill give him a message again". And being denied the ability to talk to any available flight instructor, chief pilot, or owner.

dont get me wrong, i hope this is real, i'd love for my friend to finish these ratings in almost 1/2 the time it took me!!
Oh I am very skeptical of these types of programs.

I had fun getting my 250, basically multiple vacations to really cool places. I probably spent less doing it than many that went "accelerated" too. I just don't understand what the big rush is about.

I have never had anything to do with any 141 school so everything I know about them is second hand; but I have met people that were CFIs with about 200 hours in an airplane after coming from a 141 school.
 

riot shields

Well-Known Member
the "big rush" depends on the person and their own goals, for sure. but if it's the airlines, then it's better to be on the front edge of the hiring than the back end (or no end!) when it happens again... hopefully not "if" but "when"; but i'd say if thats your short/long term goal then it's best to be ready as soon as possible. at least once you have your cfi licenses you actually get paid to fly, seems to be much better than paying to fly... but thats just me.

so why wouldn't a school like this be more popular than ATP or AF if you can get out with possibly 100 hours LESS time. why wouldn't this sort of curriculum be more popular? I'd do it this way if I had to do it again and this program was actually not so shady!
 

bdhill1979

Gone West
the "big rush" depends on the person and their own goals, for sure. but if it's the airlines, then it's better to be on the front edge of the hiring than the back end (or no end!) when it happens again... hopefully not "if" but "when"; but i'd say if thats your short/long term goal then it's best to be ready as soon as possible. at least once you have your cfi licenses you actually get paid to fly, seems to be much better than paying to fly... but thats just me.

so why wouldn't a school like this be more popular than ATP or AF if you can get out with possibly 100 hours LESS time. why wouldn't this sort of curriculum be more popular? I'd do it this way if I had to do it again and this program was actually not so shady!
Yeah but how many people with 100 hours less will find a job with that wet Commercial Certificate? Now they don't have enough hours to meet insurance requirements for a lot of low time jobs and are stuck with going back to get a CFI certificate, or paying for more hours to meet insurance requirements. And how much more does this fast paced gig cost?

I am not calling it impossible, but by having fewer hours they are making themselves less competitive for a job. Insurance requirements are a much bigger factor than FAA certificates. Hell, when I was around 900 hours I had to haggle with the insurance company to insure me in a T206, even though I had 200+ hours in a T210, they required 50 hours and an official checkout in the 206.

Personally I would rather take some time, fly another 100 hours and enjoy the ride, gain some real experience, be more "hireable", and just plain have fun.
 

riot shields

Well-Known Member
Yeah but how many people with 100 hours less will find a job with that wet Commercial Certificate? Now they don't have enough hours to meet insurance requirements for a lot of low time jobs and are stuck with going back to get a CFI certificate, or paying for more hours to meet insurance requirements. And how much more does this fast paced gig cost?

I am not calling it impossible, but by having fewer hours they are making themselves less competitive for a job. Insurance requirements are a much bigger factor than FAA certificates. Hell, when I was around 900 hours I had to haggle with the insurance company to insure me in a T206, even though I had 200+ hours in a T210, they required 50 hours and an official checkout in the 206.

Personally I would rather take some time, fly another 100 hours and enjoy the ride, gain some real experience, be more "hireable", and just plain have fun.
You bring up a good point, the insurance. I think, well at least I tell him he should flight instruct because i remember when I had 600 hours I thought I knew stuff... and then at 1200 I realized how LITTLE I really knew. I agree, experience is a very important thing. But you could always get your Certs. and CFI, II, MEI and then if you can't instruct anywhere yet then rent a plane. Renting a plane with possibly somebody else and doing a real XC could be more valuable than lengthening your time getting the actual certificate. I remember my first commercial XC , PVD - GSP and back. I saw so many things that i "heard" about for my first time, alone. the experience I gained was incredible.

There are pros and cons for sure, arguable on both sides. I just want to know how realistic this 110 hour program is. I think Tim has 60-70 hours so by the time he would finish that program and instructing licenses he'll have 200 or so, so not too far off from the normal part 61 250 hours for commercial.

thanks for giving me.. well, us, some additional things to think about.

I think Tim owes me a flight in a 172 !!
 

minitour

New Member
I'm very skeptical of this training. Tim's a friend of mine and I can't find much information on this sort of training. I just want to make sure that everyone understands the way they have it on paper...
Easy solution.

Ask to see a copy of their syllabus/training program and 141 certificate. I'll assume they're a 141 school with a "special curricula" approved for just such a course.

If so, they should have a 141 "Air Agency" Certificate, a "Training Course Outline" (Syllabus), SOP "book" of some sort, etc.

You should be able to at least take a look at these. They might make you buy a syllabus and SOP book (we sold ours, Jepp sells theirs, etc.) but it could be worth it in the end. The big thing you're looking for is in the back. It's the list of current pages. Looks like a revision page you get from Jeppesen only it's got a stamp and a signature from a fed (their 141 POI). That (and the certificate) makes it legit.


so why wouldn't a school like this be more popular than ATP or AF if you can get out with possibly 100 hours LESS time.
How much advertising do they do?

Now compare that with AF and ATP.

There's your answer.

One other possibility:
They could be "forgetting" or "leaving out" the XX hours of "time building" the "student" has to do to complete the "course" ... if you catch my drift.

-mini
 

timmytootall

Well-Known Member
I talked to the director at the school for some information, and I got a syllabus breakdown by lesson showing how the experience requirements are met, a cost breakdown, and a 141 air agency certificate which mentions the 110 hour program. One thing that bothers me is that the program was approved only in August, and while they do have students enrolled none of them have actually finished the course.

Even without some valuable (and fun) experience going part 61, the time and money saved here could go towards cfi licenses or xc time apart from the school. Anyone know of a school willing to hire a cfi with less than 200 hours?
 

bdhill1979

Gone West
Anyone know of a school willing to hire a cfi with less than 200 hours?
They are out there, but with furloughs coming back looking for work right now you would have some serious competition; and of course that could all change tomorrow. Then comes the insurance as well, I know the school I started at required 250 hours for the insurance.

I was lucky enough to combine my Commercial and CFI training, did the Commercial from the right seat with the same examiner that would be doing the CFI 10 days later (it was supposed to be the next day, but Wx and Mx conspired against me). It saved me a load of cash and I started the training when I had about 215 hours.

If you can find a CFI and an Examiner willing to let you do it in the right seat, it is pretty much a prep for the CFI as the PTS is pretty much the same as far as the flight is concerned.
 
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