10/10 and clear?

[bLizZuE]

Why can't I find any reference to this in the FAR/AIM.

In reference to when you're considered 'established' on a IAP. In my mind I know it's within 10 miles of the FAF, 10 degrees of the FAC, and cleared for the approach.

I would like a reference of some sort for this...

-Thanks

 

[tgrayson]

Why can't I find any reference to this in the FAR/AIM.

In reference to when you're considered 'established' on a IAP. In my mind I know it's within 10 miles of the FAF, 10 degrees of the FAC, and cleared for the approach.

I would like a reference of some sort for this...

-Thanks

There isn't a reference, because it isn't necessarily true.

The FAA really hasn't given a useful definition of *established*, but the most conservative interpretation is that you must be on a "black line" on the approach. The 10 miles only applies if there is an intermediate or initial segement that extends 10 miles from the FAF. which isn't always the case.

Wally Roberts, a well-known expert in instrument approaches offered his interpretation of what established means:

1) You're past the fix that marks the beginning of the segment in question, and
2) You're tracking the course to the minimum standards for instrument pilots.

For the intermediate segment, requirement 2 means less than full scale deflection, and less than 3/4 for the final approach segment. Still, Wally in the past has created scenarios where less than 1/2 scale deflection of a VOR on final approach could put you in the rocks on some approaches.

ICAO has, I believe, a definition of "established" to mean within 1/2 scale deflection.

 

[seagull]

ICAO is one dot on an ILS or VOR and 5 degrees on an NDB.

I still maintain that since we are an ICAO member state, those items defined by ICAO but not revised by FAA would default back to ICAO. I base that as that is the way the rest of the World works when looking at the local State's regulation.

 

[tgrayson]

I still maintain that since we are an ICAO member state, those items defined by ICAO but not revised by FAA would default back to ICAO. I base that as that is the way the rest of the World works when looking at the local State's regulation.

Makes sense to me.

ICAO is one dot on an ILS or VOR and 5 degrees on an NDB.

Any idea where I can find a primary reference to this? I'd like to have access to ICAO publications the same way I do FAA stuff. The 1/2 deflection I mentioned was in the FAA's "Instrument Procedures Handbook", which may be several levels removed from the source.

 

[seagull]

Makes sense to me.



Any idea where I can find a primary reference to this? I'd like to have access to ICAO publications the same way I do FAA stuff. The 1/2 deflection I mentioned was in the FAA's "Instrument Procedures Handbook", which may be several levels removed from the source.

I'll send you it via email.

 

[bLizZuE]

If it isn't true, why is that what I've been taught

 

[tgrayson]

If it isn't true, why is that what I've been taught

This is an example of a complex issue "dumbed down" by a CFI. Your instructor might have well been taught the same thing, so it may not have been his fault. Teaching it this way is easy, but it prevents you from having a more complete understanding of instrument approach plates and approaches in general.

What you needed to know is *why* and *when* the 10/10/clear works and when it doesn't.

Here's the key concept:

When cleared for the approach, you can descend to published altitudes when you're established on a published segment of the approach.

You need the tools to know when you're on a published segment.

On a stereotypical approach with a PT, when you complete the PT at the very limit of the PT protected area, you're 10 miles from the FAF. You've seen the note "Remain within 10 nm"? In that situation, if you're within 10 nm, you are on the intermediate segment.

However: there are a handful of PT's that only allow 5 nm. And some allow 15 nm. And there are many approaches that don't have PT's at all, so you don't know without looking at the approach exactly where the intermediate segment starts.

Here's a unusual example of an approach where the 10/10/clear could bite you. Tell me when you could descend when vectored for this approach, and what altitude you would descend to:

http://www.boundvortex.com/images%5COlv%20Loc%2018.jpg

 

[PanJet]

...Here's a unusual example of an approach where the 10/10/clear could bite you. Tell me when you could descend when vectored for this approach, and what altitude you would descend to:

http://www.boundvortex.com/images%5COlv%20Loc%2018.jpg

My guess is that you would be vectored onto the localizer course outside of MANDD, and you would probably be given vectoring altitudes down to 2000' and required to hold a heading and that altitude until you crossed MANDD. I could be wrong and I'm curious to know the answer.

There is a very similar approach in Vancouver, WA at a neat little airport called Vancouver Pearson. It's the coolest airport because I believe it's the only non-towered airport that is technically class D airspace because it lies underneath the final approach for RWY 10L at Portland International at a about two to three miles from RWY10L, and you must call Portland Tower to takeoff or land there.

The approach is neat because it uses the PDX RWY 10L localizer to create an LDA approach for this tiny little GA airport. This one is a great one for quizzing my students on how they would get to the approach (no transitions), how they would be able to identify each of the fixes, including the MAP, and if they could do it and how without DME. Most of my students at first don't see why DME isn't required for the approach.

http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/0702/05807LDAA.PDF

 

[bLizZuE]

MSA is 2500, but MCA for MANDD is 2000. I would assume vectors would be at 2500, then a cross MANDD at 2000.

I'm kind of torqued that this 10/10 and clear thing isn't a standard thing. What do I replace this with?

 

[seagull]

If it isn't true, why is that what I've been taught

Are you sure you want me to start my rant about the lack of standards and quality in General Aviation? Have you not read the various threads on how most in general aviation are taught that lift is created?

You are taught wrong things because there is no quality control in general aviation. FAA is fairly good in the 121 world, but in GA, dismal.

 

[bLizZuE]

I'm in a 141 academy too!

 

[tgrayson]

My guess is that you would be vectored onto the localizer course outside of MANDD, and you would probably be given vectoring altitudes down to 2000' and required to hold a heading and that altitude until you crossed MANDD. I could be wrong and I'm curious to know the answer.

That's a good answer, which shows that you understand the issues. However, tracking the loc is perfectly acceptable for course guidance, it's just that there is no published segment outside MANDD. An appropriate clearance should have been "Maintain 2,500 until MANDD, cleared for the approach." What they should *NOT* say is , "Turn left heading 210, maintain 2,500 until established on the localizer, cleared for OLV LOC 18." They're only supposed to use that lingo when the vector will actually put you on a published segment.

And ATC generally didn't get you down to 2,000, because of an antenna farm to the north. They kept you at 2,500 to join the loc. Once on the loc, they *expected* you go down to 2,000, even though there is no published segment. Refusing to do so caused them problems with the approach into the Memphis Class B Rwy 27.

I got this solved by talking to the FAA Flight Procedures Office. The guy issued a Notam that day raising the crossing altitude at MANDD to 2,500. The approach has subsequently been replaced with an ILS.

 

[tgrayson]

MSA is 2500, but MCA for MANDD is 2000. I would assume vectors would be at 2500, then a cross MANDD at 2000.

I'm kind of torqued that this 10/10 and clear thing isn't a standard thing. What do I replace this with?

That's pretty much the way it should be. Remember that MSA's have no real function in an approach, although it might be a good heads up as to what MVA is.

However, the typical clearance would be "Cessna 1234X, turn left heading 210, maintain 2,500 until established, cleared Olive Branch Localizer 18."

If you followed the 10/10/Clear rule, *as some instructors did*, they'd descend once they intercepted the localizer. As you see, this is wrong, because
1) There is no PT that protects out to 10 nm, and
2) There is no published segment at all outside the FAF.

There is no substitute for reading the chart.

Here's another very ordinary procedure:

http://naco.faa.gov/d-tpp/0702/00253I27.PDF

If you were vectored in outside COVIM, can you see why the 10/10/Clear wouldn't work?

 

[bLizZuE]

So then how do I define 'established' for myself?

 

[tgrayson]

So then how do I define 'established' for myself?

By looking at the chart. You need, at all times, to be able to tell what segment that you intend to be on and whether you're there or not. You've got to know, based on the chart, and the chart alone. The chart is the alpha and omega.

 

[seagull]

ICAO is one dot on an ILS or VOR and 5 degrees on an NDB.

I still maintain that since we are an ICAO member state, those items defined by ICAO but not revised by FAA would default back to ICAO. I base that as that is the way the rest of the World works when looking at the local State's regulation.

Just to clarify, an ICAO "one dot" is half scale, as that is the indication on larger aircraft. I think it is the same on smaller aircraft with an HSI, but I'm not sure. In any event, the ICAO standard is to display one dot at half scale, regardless of what your instrument uses.

 

[bLizZuE]

By looking at the chart. You need, at all times, to be able to tell what segment that you intend to be on and whether you're there or not. You've got to know, based on the chart, and the chart alone. The chart is the alpha and omega.

SO when someone asks me 'When are you considered established?' My answer should just always be - 'Depends'

 

[nosehair]

So then how do I define 'established' for myself?

You have to know TERPs. A very complicated method of determining the airspace which makes up an approach. By knowing the perameters of the approach corridor, you can call yourself 'established' when you are within those perameters. If you can define your milage distance away from the centerline as you proceed along the centerline, or deviate from it, you will know you are 'established' like you do when you are on a visual approach.

When you are visual final, do you go-around if you drift over in line with the taxiway? Maybe if your'e close-in, but probably not if you are a couple miles out. The point is, that it is your call, but you have to know the lateral and vertical limits for that approach.

To keep it simple, we say things like 1/2 scale, 3/4 scale, 1 dot 2 dots, there are many different "rules of thumb". All of them are well within the legal limits. ICAO is not legally binding, but is a good place to start.

For you to make your own decision requires that you become very versed in TERPs.

 

[seagull]

You have to know TERPs. A very complicated method of determining the airspace which makes up an approach. By knowing the perameters of the approach corridor, you can call yourself 'established' when you are within those perameters. If you can define your milage distance away from the centerline as you proceed along the centerline, or deviate from it, you will know you are 'established' like you do when you are on a visual approach.

When you are visual final, do you go-around if you drift over in line with the taxiway? Maybe if your'e close-in, but probably not if you are a couple miles out. The point is, that it is your call, but you have to know the lateral and vertical limits for that approach.

To keep it simple, we say things like 1/2 scale, 3/4 scale, 1 dot 2 dots, there are many different "rules of thumb". All of them are well within the legal limits. ICAO is not legally binding, but is a good place to start.

For you to make your own decision requires that you become very versed in TERPs.

I am not sure that an argument could not be made that ICAO is legally binding absent a local State's rules that override it.

 

[tgrayson]

SO when someone asks me 'When are you considered established?' My answer should just always be - 'Depends'

Wally's definition is a good one. Remember, the overriding concern when flying an instrument approach is "Don't hit anything." This concept is more important than the legal definition of "established," which doesn't exist anyway.

For every segment, there is a point where it begins. You *must* be past that point and roughly centered on the course. The beginning of each segment is often denoted by a fix. One exception is where the PT intercepts the intermediate or final approach segment. That segment begins where the PT intercepts the course at the furtherest possible point, normally 10 miles.