ATP thoughts from currently attending or most recent grads

Re: ATP thoughts from currently attending or most recent gra

The biggest selling point for ATP is that they have LOA's with several airlines, but those don't help when those companies are furloughing. I'd recommend that you stay away from ATP, do it at a local fbo and network at every chance.
 
Re: ATP thoughts from currently attending or most recent gra

madmax said:
The biggest selling point for ATP is that they have LOA's with several airlines, but those don't help when those companies are furloughing. I'd recommend that you stay away from ATP, do it at a local fbo and network at every chance.
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Those LOA's are pointless in general! If you believe for a second you got hired due to a LOA you are absolutely wrong. In the end it comes down to personality and the persons experience and how they are able to sell themself in an interview.
 
Re: ATP thoughts from currently attending or most recent gra

the LOA's don't get you hired, but they get an interview, and that can be the hardest step for low time guys. And like I said, those LOA's have no use when the companies aren't making money.
 
Re: ATP thoughts from currently attending or most recent gra

"those LOA's have no use when the companies aren't making money."

Which is exactly why I call out ATP marketing for having on their banner ad "Seniority is everything, get there quick with ATP"
 
Re: ATP thoughts from currently attending or most recent gra

I'm with you on that one DE727UPS. 6 months ago, it sounded great. It was also 15k less at that point. It's amazing how much my view of ATP has changed in that time. I am so glad I didn't dive right in back in October when I REALLY wanted to start training. I guess I'm wondering if ATP would ever be considered a "wise" choice again as a concensus on this board. I would imagine you have to be pretty far sighted if you can see that happening.

Of course they'll keep making their money, because people will buy their line. I sounds like being a pro-pilot can be a great thing. I just doesn't sound like being an airline pilot is a great thing right now. So I'll look elsewhere... no biggy. A plane is a plane.
 
Re: ATP thoughts from currently attending or most recent gra

eclipse said:
ATP does not encourage ANYWHERE (at least where I have read and where I instruct) to skip being a CFI, take the RJ course and go to 121. ATP does not have the ability to force people into being a CFI, but it is strongly encouraged. Clearly the market isnt going to support low time Regional FO's anymore, so that "problem" is going to solve itself, and everybody will be better off. It just seems to be different criticism of ATP at every turn by self appointed "yoda's" that seem to resent the nature of the industry but take it out on the suppliers of the needs of that industry. Just looking for the logic, thats all.
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I think you work there
 
Re: ATP thoughts from currently attending or most recent gra

I sure do. (Contract, not employee). It isnt my first aviation job and it wont be my last. Are ATP CFI's not allowed to post? After all, as a current CFI I know more of the pertinent info than many of the people that post, including past CFI's. ATP isnt perfect, but I like it and am proud of the students I send for checkrides, and have earned my gold seal. Moreover, if I wouldnt send my parents flying with them, they dont get signed off. I get ZERO resistance from MGMT about that. I have enjoyed watching my students get their jobs- Regionals, 135 SIC jobs, Skydiver haulers, etc. And like BILLH they start flying for cash before others get their CMEL. They take checkrides, meet FAA standards and then work to the limits of their Certs, SOONER than others in with the same certs- so I am skeptical of the skepticism. Uh, DE727 they do get there sooner, so you may not like the slogan, the company, or the idea of ATP- but the slogan isnt dishonest. (which is why we all know you have an emotional dog in the fight.)



On the other hand, I hate it that they have all of the debt. Cant help that. Not my decision. But multi time is expensive...so what can you do? There are 0 FBO's in a 100nm radius with a twin for rent less than ATP's estimated costs. I wont be here for much longer, but I will be damn proud of the time I spent and students I trained. :rawk:

(post 12)
 
Re: ATP thoughts from currently attending or most recent gra

eclipse... do you currently instruct in richmond?
if so, WHO ARE YOU?! :)
 
Re: ATP thoughts from currently attending or most recent gra

"the slogan isnt dishonest. (which is why we all know you have an emotional dog in the fight.)"

Again. I find the slogan as a cheap marketing practice in this day and age. The regionals are not, and will not, be what they were six months ago. Telling people to "get there fast for the seniority" will not serve them well if they get furloughed.

If Xjet lays off guys that were at ATP 3 months ago, would you not find it disgusting to be pushing the "get there fast at ATP cause WE have the placement agreements"
agenda?

It's selling a false hope, or false idea, to people who don't know any better.

Now tell me how they deserve it for not doing their research.....
 
Re: ATP thoughts from currently attending or most recent gra

DE727UPS said:
"the slogan isnt dishonest. (which is why we all know you have an emotional dog in the fight.)"

Again. I find the slogan as a cheap marketing practice in this day and age. The regionals are not, and will not, be what they were six months ago. Telling people to "get there fast for the seniority" will not serve them well if they get furloughed.

If Xjet lays off guys that were at ATP 3 months ago, would you not find it disgusting to be pushing the "get there fast at ATP cause WE have the placement agreements"
agenda?

It's selling a false hope, or false idea, to people who don't know any better.

Now tell me how they deserve it for not doing their research.....
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Maybe true, but EVERY flight school tries to "sell" something. They might not have the marketing budget that ATP has, but I have yet to see a flight school that doesnt try and make a profit. In fact, there are ton of smaller flight schools trying to sell the exact type of program ATP has. Are all these "small" flight schools bad for trying to cater to wannabe professional pilots? I dont think so...

The state of the industry seems to change on a weekly basis nowadays. Its not the flight schools fault their 90 day wonders might get furloughed. The school is selling an education, what the customer decides to do with that afterwards has nothing to do with the school. I am not disgusted with any flight school because airline pilots are or may be getting furloughed.
 
Re: ATP thoughts from currently attending or most recent gra

"I sure do. (Contract, not employee)."

I love that one too. Here's the IRS test on what determines independent contractors:

"For the following questions, a "yes" answer means the worker is an employee.
Does the principal provide instructions to the worker about when, where, and how he or she is to perform the work?

Does the principal provide training to the worker?

Are the services provided by the worker integrated into the principal's business operations?

Must the services be rendered personally by the worker?

Does the principal hire, supervise and pay assistants to the worker?

Is there a continuing relationship between the principal and the worker?

Does the principal set the work hours and schedule?

Does the worker devote substantially full time to the business of the principal?

Is the work performed on the principal's premises?

Is the worker required to perform the services in an order or sequence set by the principal?

Is the worker required to submit oral or written reports to the principal?

Is the worker paid by the hour, week, or month?

Does the principal have the right to discharge the worker at will?

Can the worker terminate his or her relationship with the principal any time he or she wishes without incurring liability to the principal?

Does the principal pay the business or traveling expenses of the worker?"

"For the following questions, a "yes" answer means
the worker is an independent contractor."

Does the worker furnish significant tools, materials and equipment?

Does the worker have a significant investment in facilities?

Can the worker realize a profit or loss as a result of his or her services?

Does the worker provide services for more than one firm at a time?

Does the worker make his or her services available to the general public?"

Now, I've never worked for ATP, but those of your that have. Can you actually look at this and say the IC thing isn't hogwash?
 
Re: ATP thoughts from currently attending or most recent gra

"Its not the flight schools fault their 90 day wonders might get furloughed"

It's not? But what if they are pushing the career with "come to ATP, we have agreements, get there FAST for the seniority" agenda. Yeah, it's marketing. Yeah, they are just trying to make money. Yeah, they got their education.

I just find it....dishonorable.....to push the agenda for the sake of profit in this day and age when you know that there is a major upheaval in the biz.

Again, a link to JC would solve the problem, as I see it.....
 
Re: ATP thoughts from currently attending or most recent gra

eclipse said:
DE727, I would, respectfully, challenge you on the notion that you do not have a dog in the fight. The amount of emotion in your argument seems to say otherwise. Dont know you personally, that is just what it sounds like.
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Doesn't look to me like he has a dog in the fight. He has a good job already and doesn't have to worry about any 90-day-wonders sitting next to him at UPS.
 
Re: ATP thoughts from currently attending or most recent gra

germb747 said:
Doesn't look to me like he has a dog in the fight. He has a good job already and doesn't have to worry about any 90-day-wonders sitting next to him at UPS.
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At the end of the day, everyone has to pass the same check rides no matter where they went or how they got there.
 
Re: ATP thoughts from currently attending or most recent gra

DE727UPS said:
"I sure do. (Contract, not employee)."

. . . . Now, I've never worked for ATP, but those of your that have. Can you actually look at this and say the IC thing isn't hogwash?
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It absolutely is hogwash. At ATP they assign specific days off for the holiday season. You also must ask permission to take even a day off. You may get away with it at facilities away from JAC but it could bite you. They have a very specific way in which to deliver the program. If you are a flight instructor for ATP, you are not truly an independant contractor.
 
Re: ATP thoughts from currently attending or most recent gra

ry28 said:
My careers goal is to be a pilot of some sort (regional, 135, freight, major ect.) I have my ppl and am half way thru my single instruments (part 61). As of right now i have about 86 total hrs. There is a Fbo in my area that i can finish up my instruments, single comm., single cfi, and multi comm. for approx. 22-25 thousand. I was also looking into going to one of the ATP locations to finish up but the price is 60-65 thousand i believe. It seems that ATP offers more (cfi inteview, possible regional interview ect.) after completing the program. I'm just looking for some info about the school from people who are attending or just grad. to fill me in on this program. Money wise i would goto the fbo which i prob will end up doing. but if someone could shed some info about this place to me that would be helpful. I wouldnt mind accepting PM also. this post might be a little choppy but just got alot i want to know before i make a decision. thanks
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A year ago I was in the exactly same position as you are now...I had about 85 hours and didn't have a lot of $$ to spend. Today I'm flying the ERJ145 for a small regional. My advice is go hang out at the airport whenever you have free time and get to know people. Find out who owns what airplane and I ask them if they would like you to wash their airplane in exchange of a ride. Many times I went to the airport to study because I didn't have much free time. I lucked out and got hired with only 800 hours...maybe you will too.

Good luck!
 
Re: ATP thoughts from currently attending or most recent gra

meyers9163 said:
Hmmm... I dont know exactly what you mean by being less time as a student means more you are getting paid for your skills. What about those who spend 20k-40k less and did it in a little longer and have less debt (nearly half of what an ATP pays in a monthly payment) and therefore has the nicer house, nicer car, nice debt/income ratio and all that stuff...... Funny how that all works too. Also skills are not developed in 90 days. Yes you can fly but I'm not sure how I would go about saying getting paid for your skills. I dont know I find this attitude more so as to what is wrong with the industry. Let me rush and pay double to get piad 20k. While that person who spent maybe 180 days spent only half the amount and thus is only 90 days behind you. And yes he's again only having half of the debt.....Just other things too look at!
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How much is it to attend the 90-day ATP program these days? 60 - 65k? How about let me rush and pay TRIPLE to get paid 20k...?
 
Re: ATP thoughts from currently attending or most recent gra

Bumblebee said:
It absolutely is hogwash. At ATP they assign specific days off for the holiday season. You also must ask permission to take even a day off. You may get away with it at facilities away from JAC but it could bite you. They have a very specific way in which to deliver the program. If you are a flight instructor for ATP, you are not truly an independant contractor.
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VERY TRUE! I wish Del and others could bring this to the attention of some FEDS. ATP deserves to get into trouble. I had a friend in Panama (former student) who worked from 8am-8pm without a break. That's just crazy. You are not an independent contractor when a schedule is set for you. When your students checkrides are set for you. When you work 12 hours and cant get a break. Matter of fact thatbreaks every rule in OSHA! Its about time Jim and Phil are held accountable for the ###### treatment of their employeers. Fact of the matter is they are cheap tools anyways. Only reason they do the independent contractor crap is so save money. I dont have to take taxes out, i dont have to do the paper work etc...... They are FULL of it..... In no way are you an INDEPENDENT CONTRACTOR at ATP. You are an employee and in their mind you will do as you are told (thus you do not dictate your life thus you are not independed at all).


GREAT POST DEL! That's absolutely correct and attention should be brought to this! I might actually send that to Jim just for some S&G's!
 
Re: ATP thoughts from currently attending or most recent gra

eclipse said:
There are 0 FBO's in a 100nm radius with a twin for rent less than ATP's estimated costs. I wont be here for much longer, but I will be damn proud of the time I spent and students I trained. :rawk:

(post 12)
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www.indyaero.com check out their seminole. Plus check out their Multi course... I'm pretty sure that's a seminole. Just nicely as equipped with a G430 and as nice if not nicer then ATP's 79's. Oh by the way its WAY cheaper then ATP rents a seminole for. Plus you can fly it where ever you want! Novel concept eh?
 
Re: ATP thoughts from currently attending or most recent gra

SIUav8er said:
The school is selling an education, what the customer decides to do with that afterwards has nothing to do with the school. I am not disgusted with any flight school because airline pilots are or may be getting furloughed.
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An education? Really.... I would call it more so a skill. By no means is it an EDUCATION. But that's my 2 cents. An education takes time and isnt done over night.... How many people get their BS in 90 days? Not many..... Just my 2 cents though no need to go off on this.

In addition if you are not digusted with pilots losing their jobs perhaps you need to check your desire to get into this industry. One who wants to be a professional pilot would wish on ill will on anyone and would wish for the best. They certainly would have and would not show no emotion at all towards them. After all they are your fellow pilots!
 
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