Southwest vs. the FAA

Chicaga, we obviously aren't going to agree on this, so no need to keep going. I consider 20 minute turn times and compressed block times to be "rushing" pilots. You obviously disagree. Have fun at SWA if that's where you end up. I'll be enjoying my 45 minute turns and 3 legs a day.
 
PCL_128 said:
Chicaga, we obviously aren't going to agree on this, so no need to keep going. I consider 20 minute turn times and compressed block times to be "rushing" pilots. You obviously disagree. Have fun at SWA if that's where you end up. I'll be enjoying my 45 minute turns and 3 legs a day.
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The pilots are sitting there waiting for the cabin to be ready. Heck, I'm doing that and we only have to de-plane 50 and board 50 people, no different from the CRJ you flew.

On a 737 it's even easier because the flight plan is in and ready to go as soon as they arrive, the walk-around can be waived, etc. It doesn't take rushing pilots to turn the plane in 20 minutes, it takes rushing passengers.
 
Nick said:
The pilots are sitting there waiting for the cabin to be ready. Heck, I'm doing that and we only have to de-plane 50 and board 50 people, no different from the CRJ you flew.
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How 'bout the beginning of your duty day? I used to see it in JAN all the time because we parked right next to SWA. The PM crew showed up in the afternoon to take a plane that had a 20 minute turn scheduled. The copilot actually waits down on the ramp so he can do the quickest walkaround I've ever seen as soon as the plane pulls in, and he starts it before the engines are even spooling down! Then he needs to rush upstairs, get settled, get the ATIS and clearance, program the box, CA has to brief the FAs, etc... It's ridiculous.

the walk-around can be waived
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And this is exactly the kind of stuff I'm talking about. Waiving a preflight to get a flight out on time is BS. My Chief Pilot would beat me with a rubber hose if I didn't do a preflight.
 
Just to add another observation to the mix; Southwest was the only place we could position our rampmasters prior to the aircraft reaching the gate. The fuel truck lanes are painted up, and it was probably safer than pulling up to a wing. It certainly wasn't dangerous imo. Those guys work their butts off and they were DEFINITELY the coolest people to shoot the bull with between flights. I think I only remember one consistently grumpy dood.

I like Southwest, but If you say it's not the norm for them to taxi like a bat out of hell, you haven't watched them move about the ramp very much. I'd try to race them on the parallel service roads but our trucks were governed. I kid.......not.
 
PCL_128 said:
How 'bout the beginning of your duty day? I used to see it in JAN all the time because we parked right next to SWA. The PM crew showed up in the afternoon to take a plane that had a 20 minute turn scheduled. The copilot actually waits down on the ramp so he can do the quickest walkaround I've ever seen as soon as the plane pulls in, and he starts it before the engines are even spooling down!
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We do this all the time. The FO for the outgoing flight will wait downstairs as the plane pulls in to do his or her preflight. Why waste a few minutes chillin' out in the jetway? Get the walkaround done, so you can go upstairs and do your interior preflight. I don't know about your airplane, but we can get ATIS, get clearance, enter our flight plan, and do the weight and balance in about ten minutes. That is about as long as it takes to board 50 passengers. I'm not talking about cutting corners, either. I'm talking enter the flight plan, check it against the paper release, do a departure briefing, and so forth. It's about being deliberate in your actions, and doing things in a defined sequence to maximize efficiency.

For instance: In a 20-minute turn, I can do my through flight checks, check the release for accuracy, enter the flight plan, and get ATIS all while the passengers are deplaning. Why just sit there? I'd love to say goodbye to the customers, but I'd also like to do my duties up front so I can go use a real bathroom, get a coffee, help the flight attendant, and get the next customers out on-time.

PCL_128 said:
And this is exactly the kind of stuff I'm talking about. Waiving a preflight to get a flight out on time is BS. My Chief Pilot would beat me with a rubber hose if I didn't do a preflight.
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I believe he is talking about the maintenance bases when mechanics do the exterior preflight. SWA is not the only airline that does this.

But like you said, agree to disagree. As long as our customers are safe, comfortable, and happy, then the techniques we use to accomplish our job are inconsequential.
 
FlyChicaga said:
I can do my through flight checks, check the release for accuracy, enter the flight plan, and get ATIS all while the passengers are deplaning. Why just sit there? I'd love to say goodbye to the customers, but I'd also like to do my duties up front so I can go use a real bathroom, get a coffee, help the flight attendant, and get the next customers out on-time.
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Personally, I like to say goodbye to the people, plus do all of the above without being in any hurry. That usually means we need a 30 minute turn at least. Plus I like at least one 45-60 minute turn during the day so I don't have to delay a flight to grab lunch. Just doesn't happen at SWA.
 
"Personally" works for you. For those that wish to work hard and play hard, SWA fits the bill. Since I only get paid to fly, and SWA pilots fly more and make 50% more than the Airtran guys, I know where I'd prefer to end up. Subject to change of course.
 
PCL_128 said:
Chicaga, we obviously aren't going to agree on this, so no need to keep going. I consider 20 minute turn times and compressed block times to be "rushing" pilots. You obviously disagree. Have fun at SWA if that's where you end up. I'll be enjoying my 45 minute turns and 3 legs a day.
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Disagree. Maybe on the first flight of the day it takes a little longer, but I rarely to show up to a plane and need the entire 20-30 minutes it takes to get the flight out on time. The few times it has taken longer is b/c something is screwed up.

Now, when I worked at SWA, we'd routinely turn a plane in 30 minutes (not 20. They were SCHEDULED for 30 minutes. The 20 minute scheduled turns went away a while ago). Full off, full on. No problem. Never felt "rushed." The key is pre-planning. If you get your stuff set up before the flight gets there, it's a non-event to get the plane turned quickly. The problem I see at a lot of other airlines is the CSAs, rampers, etc come strolling out to the plane as it's coming around the corner, have no idea what's coming off and no idea what's going on the plane. What happens is they wind up rushing around trying to find equipment to do the job. THAT causes people to rush. Thinking ahead and having things set up before the plane gets there is just common sense, and THAT is what SWA teaches the rampers at least. Doesn't sound like a culture of rushing people. Sounds like a culture of being prepared.
 
PCL_128 said:
Chicaga, we obviously aren't going to agree on this, so no need to keep going. I consider 20 minute turn times and compressed block times to be "rushing" pilots. You obviously disagree. Have fun at SWA if that's where you end up. I'll be enjoying my 45 minute turns and 3 legs a day.
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Heh. I am currently reading Nuts and thinking about the famous '10 minute turns'. I couldn't help but think of this thread.
 
According to an article in USA Today, sounds like the FAA might have known about what was going on at SWA. Question is, can they say "Yeah that's fine" and then fine them $10 million later for doing what they said was okay.

The real issue is what happens when the FAA inspectors get too chummy with management. Could have happend at SWA, I think it's DEFINATELY happened at PCL.
 
The FAA didn't know, their PMI did. That's a big difference. The PMI has zero authority to authorize deviations from required inspections and ADs. This is identical to the excuse that JetBlue used. "Well, our POI told us that we could blatantly violate the pilot flight time limitations, so we thought it was ok." :rolleyes:
 
PCL_128 said:
This is identical to the excuse that JetBlue used. "Well, our POI told us that we could blatantly violate the pilot flight time limitations, so we thought it was ok." :rolleyes:
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Exactly. Those scumbags KNEW what the limitations were, yet flew passenger flights in violation of the FARs. There should have been 27 pilot licenses pulled over that one.
 
Velocipede said:
Exactly. Those scumbags KNEW what the limitations were, yet flew passenger flights in violation of the FARs. There should have been 27 pilot licenses pulled over that one.
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Let's hope your company never decides to go on their own, have the "FAA bless this" and then tell you to do it. This is a UNION issue, along with FAA, and company. Why would the most vocal union guy say something like this and not bring the union in on this issue??????????:whatever:
 
Stone Cold said:
Let's hope your company never decides to go on their own, have the "FAA bless this" and then tell you to do it. This is a UNION issue, along with FAA, and company. Why would the most vocal union guy say something like this and not bring the union in on this issue??????????:whatever:
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JetBlue doesn't have a union.
 
Velocipede said:
Exactly. Those scumbags KNEW what the limitations were, yet flew passenger flights in violation of the FARs. There should have been 27 pilot licenses pulled over that one.
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This is either one of the funnest or saddest things you have ever said.

Isn't there a saying about people in glass houses.

Can we say flight 261 your company killed 88 people Southwest: None
 
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