I need your help!! Thinking about quitting XJT

[derg]

He's not, but I'm in close contacts with a lot of guys who are and it makes a bigger difference than you may believe.

I sat across the desk with one two weeks ago and personally friends with one that helps me answer questions which I have no idea how to.

 

[TheShortOne]

But has Moses brought down stone tablets emblazoned with "Skywest Will Continue to Hire Throughout 2008"?

Trust me, I've seen a few cycles in the business. I have nothing to gain with any decision GreenDay makes.

oh i agree - nothing is certain - i'm just pointing out that right now there is nothing to gain by staying put beyond moving up the pay scale (senority, schedules, upgrades etc)

one of our big worries is that since xjet isn't hiring, that they'll start furloughing and neither jtrain or gdp is far enough up the ladder to avoid that.

But then again, they could get on at skywest and face the same thing! it's all a crapshoot at this point...

 

[derg]

You're never too far up the seniority list to avoid furlough! Especially at a non-union carrier because they have no legally enforceable M&A language (merger and acquisition) or fragmentation policy.

 

[TheShortOne]

skywest not being unionized has been a HUGE deterrent in jumping ship over to them (also in ever applying in the first place)

 

[jtrain609]

All good points, which is further proof why this career is a complete crap shoot.

To be honest with you, I most likely won't be putting my application into carriers that I don't want to commute to for the rest of my career after this gig. Until Continental reopens Denver or Los Angeles, they're out of the running because I'm not going to commute to Newark from Salt Lake for the rest of my career, and we're most likely gonna stay in Salt Lake.

I'm not going to commute to a job at Northwest with how horrible their work rules are. No thanks, we've got a member on the forums who's father is an A320 check airman and the commute about kills him.

Delta would be heaven, United would be awesome, Airways would be alright with the PHX base, Southwest would be awesome with three close junior bases, etc. etc., but I'm not going to apply to a company that doesn't give me a realistic shot at some QOL.

This isn't the traditional thinking. The traditional way of doing things in this career is to take the first mainline job offer you've got in front of you and run with it and hope it works. I don't disagree with the idea, but I'm going to demand more from this career at this point. I'm smart, I've got a degree in philosophy, I could go to law school and make more money/be home more/probably have just as much professional fulfillment and I refuse to let the airlines run my life. I'm not so tied down to this career that I'm going to be miserable doing it. Simply put, I refuse to be a prostitute and give up all my dignity/quality of life for any airline at this point in my life.

Don't get me wrong, I love my job! Going to work is a good time, I fly with awesome people in a cool airplane and see some real interesting things. I'm kind of an introvert by nature (though most people probably won't guess that) and this job forces me out of that role, which I think is good for me. But at the same time, the most important thing in my life these days is the girl sitting on the laptop behind me and I'm only willing to give so much to this career before I say, "Well, I've either gotta find a new flying job or do something else."

I'm going to demand more from this career and I think that's good, and I hope that there are more people out there like me who want to better this career, love doing it but at the same time are not willing to sell their souls to fly a jet. I think that provides the entire community with more power and leverage because people, when they are eventually high qualified, are willing to walk away from this job it makes the airlines think twice about the sordid conditions that pilots are forced to work in sometimes.

To be honest the commute is the only crappy thing about my job! I've got better work rules that Northwest, Airways and Continental! I know things will get better over time and that what we're betting on right now. If it doesn't, well ####, we'll figure something else out. Right now I'm glad to be doing what I'm doing with the company that I'm with and the people I am and the airplane I'm in, but that doesn't remove the negatives that I would love to fix and the lack of stability that is inherent in this job.

 

[Cruise]

But I figure it's like this. I put myself in his shoes for a second. The commute to the NE is crap. But then if I were to jump ship, go to another airline, back to another ground school, there's no guarantee that I'll have a better commute and I've just wasted a couple of months where I could have been gaining seniority, getting a better schedule and/or bidding a much closer base sitting in ground school at another lateral-move airline.

I'd rather be three months ahead than putting everything on pause for three months in the hopes of getting a more western base.

I gave that exact (without the western stuff) advice to one of our very own JC'ers not too long ago. He was looking to make a move to Mesaba for a street captain spot. But, he's already a captain where he's at......doesn't make any sense to do it. Unless, of course, you're planning on making Mesaba your career. Because you'd waste too much time going through ground school and you'd be at the bottom of a seniority list for a very, very long time. For some people, this might work....but for most, it just doesn't make sense.

Therefore, keep your eye on the prize and continue to log the TPIC until the move UP the food chain comes along. Lateral moves rarely work out in the long run.

Isn't that right JC'er?

 

[SlantG]

Have you tried a base trade? There's a bunch in LAX that want EWR and elsewhere. Sure, someone senior can grab it, but it'll keep you busy for a few months until the next perm bid. Per contract, XJT has to have two next year and they still need captains.

If you have 500 multi turbine with all of your time at XJT, polish your resume and hit the pavement. If your ultimate is a corporate or charter operator, start pounding on doors. You never know when will be the right time, but it is always a "no" if you don't ask.

 

[Alchemy]

I would stick out at xjt. Then again I haven't ever had to commute more than 150 miles. Plus I haven't had a girlfriend in 2 years so I've almost forgotten what that's like. I think you will both (jtrain and greendaypilot) be able to hold ONT or LAX by this summer, but I could be way off.

All in all I would hate to lose you guys but you gotta do what you gotta do.

 

[GreenDayPilot]

Wow, a lot was posted while I was on this quick trip.

But then if I were to jump ship, go to another airline, back to another ground school, there's no guarantee that I'll have a better commute and I've just wasted a couple of months where I could have been gaining seniority, getting a better schedule and/or bidding a much closer base sitting in ground school at another lateral-move airline.

I'd rather be three months ahead than putting everything on pause for three months in the hopes of getting a more western base.

Emily covered the basics here V

the big problem though, is that xjet has stopped hiring, so there's no seniority to gain, no better schedules to shoot for, and the last perm bid was just canceled (perm bid includes base transfers and upgrades - so no upgrades until at least may).

I feel that- oh, say... in July- I would have more seniority at SKYW than at XJT because of the continuing hiring at SKYW and the hiring stoppage at XJT.

But has Moses brought down stone tablets emblazoned with "Skywest Will Continue to Hire Throughout 2008"?

No, but its a risk I might be willing to take... I swear I feel like I've been screwed out of this deal with XJT... "Don't worry, it'll me a MAX of 3 months before you get your base of choice." Then it started looking more like 6 months. OK. Now I wouldn't be surprised if I was stuck on reserve in EWR through 08.

We all love ExpressJet. The people are awesome, the flying is great, the airplane is awesome, to be honest as a base Newark rocks it (the location simply blows), but if our wives/significant others leave us then what's the use? There are a lot of folks having this discussion right now because they don't think they can hack the commute for an indefinite period of time, which is what is realistic right now (though some people are still stuck in the idea that you'll be off reserve fast and get whatever base you want quickly at Express, which is simply not happening anymore).

I agree. I love the people, the airplane, and the flying. I like flying out of EWR, but its waaay too far from home.

it's all a crapshoot at this point...

Yeah, that pretty much sums it up.

As the great Bart Simpson once said "you're damned if you do and you're damned if you don't"

Have you tried a base trade? There's a bunch in LAX that want EWR and elsewhere

If your ultimate is a corporate or charter operator, start pounding on doors. You never know when will be the right time, but it is always a "no" if you don't ask.

LAXers wanting EWR? Is that a joke or something? Well, maybe there's a couple, but for every LAX guy who wants EWR, there's 20 EWRers who want LAX.

I think corporate is gonna be my ultimate goal, but I want to try a regional for a few years. I'll take advantage of the travel bennies and maybe I'll stick around, but I'm ultimately looking for the best QOL, regardless of pay (well, to some degree).

.


Hey, thanks for the replies... I really appreciate all your advice. I'll consider it all as I make a decision.

 

[Velocipede]

Well, I've got to agree with Doug on this one. A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush, especially if you consider the effect the Age 65 legislation will have on job progression.

A story.

I had a buddy who got hired at my airline just a bit after I did. This was back in the '90s when United was hiring. One day he came in with the rejection letter. "I wonder if they'd have hired me if I told them my grandmother was Mexican?"

"You send them another application and check the Hispanic block and you'll be working for United in 6 weeks," I told him.

Sure enough, 6 weeks later he was at United. He'd come into the Navy Reserve squadron every month and tell us how he was going to be a 757 Captain in 4 years. Things were looking pretty rosy for him and I'll admit, I was a bit envious. Then along came the summer of 2000, 9/11 and the bankruptcy. Who knows where he is now, but I'll bet he isn't a 757 Captain. I also know for a fact that he's getting way underpaid and lost his pension.

So, you never know if you made the right choice until long after you retire. The airline career is a big crapshoot. Look at the industry, toss the dice and hope for the best.

All I can tell you from personal experience is that in 1990, my next interview on the schedule was UPS. I didn't go there because Captains were making about $40 an hour less and I didn't want to fly at night. If I was there today, I'd be making $50 an hour MORE and holding day schedules. As it is, I'M flying at night.

You never know.

 

[TheShortOne]

Have you tried a base trade? There's a bunch in LAX that want EWR and elsewhere. Sure, someone senior can grab it, but it'll keep you busy for a few months until the next perm bid. Per contract, XJT has to have two next year and they still need captains.

Jtrain's class was the first to get sent out east - pretty much everyone in his class is trying to get back west. Right now there is no loyalty amongst thieves. Any time a base trade is posted it gets stolen (repeatedly) until the most senior guy (usually in his class) has it.

There's little hope for that to work out at this point. Not too many people seem to want to go to EWR...

 

[Chris_Ford]

So it's "stolen" by someone more senior? Isn't that just called "seniority"?

Are people whining about seniority now?

 

[kellwolf]

Depends on your definition of "stolen." We've got guys here the hop bases just to get the 24/7 per diem and the extra 6 moving days, and they do that EVERY vacancy. Kinda ticks off the people that actually WANT a specific base. Personally, I think there should be something in our contract that says if you bid a base, you're there for X months. It would stop the sport bidders and give the ones that actually want a base b/c they live there a fighting chance.

 

[Trip7]

I agree with Velo on this one. This industry is a complete crapshoot. You can plan all you want, but you'll NEVER know if you made the right move until age 65. All the senior people at UPS and FEDEX right now never would imagined when they got hired that they would be in the position they are today. Im sure Don knew that UPS was a good company but I doubt it was his first choice back then when he got hired. The dice just rolled in his favor. Unfortunately, it has rolled against many in this industry. As far as going to a major without any TPIC, NO ONE can say if it is a good or bad move. It is a gamble. It can either turn out to be an awesome move where you gain wicked seniority and retire #1, or it can turn out VERY bad in which you've wasted years of your life as a major FO only to return to regional FO. Its a rough world out there, I wish all of you the best.

With that said, one member PMed me about what I think the industry will be like in the future. Like I said before I believe 2008 will be a very interesting year. I think it will be a bloody year in the airline business in which only the strongest survive. Also, talking to many of my college friends who are in economics and such the news is that the US is on the verge of a massive recession never seen before that the public is oblivious to since the media masks the truth. Kramer's freaking out on national television. Economists are on Youtube saying that its over for the US. They speak of financial Armageddon and the end of the era of spend. Im just strapped in and prepared for the ride. Im just glad the pilots are needed globally anyway.

 

[TheShortOne]

So it's "stolen" by someone more senior? Isn't that just called "seniority"?

Are people whining about seniority now?

no, not really - just saying that a base trade isn't a realistic option at this point. John says the only people getting into LA at this point are G numbers.

 

[meritflyer]

Personally, I'd stick it out and move onto something bigger. You can throw a lateral pass all you'd like, but until you get past the line of scrimage, you're pretty much just blowing time.

Remember, the grass is always greener, but it's not.

Amen!!

Too many people think the "issues" they face will be cured at another carrier whether it be a base or upgrade but I've got news for them!

Greenday, I'd stay. Make the best of it. Dont go to a carrier simply for a base. They change monthly, yearly, ect. You'd be leaving a great company with hopes and dreams, literally, that SKYW will cure your problems and most likely, it wont.

 

[Trip7]

Based on what i think of the recent age 65 ruling, current regional environment, situation at XJT, and your current QOL, I'd say bail out and go to SKW. Same to you Jtrain.

 

[meritflyer]

Jtrain, listen to 777. He went to ATP, flies a "$30M turboprop" for "Southernjets Connection" (WTF?), and appears to be some sort of airline economist.

 

[OldTownPilot]

"age 65" will stagnate this at Skywest just as it has done at XJT. Its one of those 6 at one, half dozen at the other type deals. Which is worse, stuck in MKE at skw or EWR with xjt?

 

[Trip7]

"age 65" will stagnate this at Skywest just as it has done at XJT. Its one of those 6 at one, half dozen at the other type deals. Which is worse, stuck in MKE at skw or EWR with xjt?

Stagnate is what i think is going to happen due to the new age 65 rule. So I think it is better to be stagnated at SKW with an easier commute and better QOL then to be commuting cross country after 1.5 days at home just to save 50-0 seniority numbers when you might get furloughed later anyway. The risk outweighs the benefits IMO.