Nick
Well-Known Member
That's true. I suppose those should be left in the system then.
However I still think they should be filtered out of an IFR release.
Are You Applying FDC Notams?
- Thread starter tgrayson
- Start date
That's true. I suppose those should be left in the system then.
However I still think they should be filtered out of an IFR release.
staplegun
Well-Known Member
:yeahthat: X 1000!
Zap has it exactly right!
The rest of this thread is just chaff...
Read the damn NOTAMS, it's your job!
Kevin
Ralgha
Well-Known Member
I'm at a company with no "union protection". I take whatever time I need, and I've never heard a thing about any delays that I've caused. Ever. Not once. Nadda, zero, zip, zilch. Neither has anyone that I know of, even some that probably should have.
Ralgha
Well-Known Member
Whoah, you don't think you can enter a hold for anything? If I want to enter a hold, I'm going to enter a goddamn hold (or get delay vectors, or whatever). Not long ago I told the controller that we would be holding until we could get a temperature for the airport (the airport's temperature sensor was broken). I didn't ask, I told, and we did.
If you just enter a hold without telling anyone that's a whole different ball of wax, but nobody is going to tell me that I can't hold (or delay in some fashion) when I want to.
John the system is messed up. Everyone knows this. Listen to the guys that are saying they checkem no matter what. They are the guys that have been there and done that. It's not the wonder children telling you this. I'm very lucky. I goto the same 3 airports every night. I can check the NOTAMS before we start very easily. Because of this I won't lecture you about what you should or shouldn't be doing.
Do the best you can and fly safe. The peanut gallery isn't in the suck every day so I wouldn't be receptive to what they are saying either. But listen to ZAP, Doug, B76 and the the other experienced guys.
Do the best you can and fly safe. The peanut gallery isn't in the suck every day so I wouldn't be receptive to what they are saying either. But listen to ZAP, Doug, B76 and the the other experienced guys.
ZapBrannigan
If it ain’t a Boeing, I’m not going. No choice.
John,
Check PMs.
Check PMs.
jtrain609
Antisocial Monster
BS! I'll tell you about it at the next NJC if you want to hear the story, but I got a number to call after asking for a hold the other night.
jtrain609
Antisocial Monster
I'm not really sure how Ethan's comment of, "The NOTAM system is horrible" and me agreeing with it got turned into, "JOHN DOESN'T CHECK NOTAMS! HE'S THE ANTI CHRIST AND A HORRIBLE PILOT! WATCH HIM! WATCH HIM!" but ok.
The system sucks, things get missed, that was clarified somewhere on page 2 on this thread. But as usual...
EDIT: And with a quick sweep of the thread, no where did I ever mention that I don't check NOTAMs. I said the formatting sucks, and it's easy to miss things. Go back over the thread if you'd like.
Somebody says, "Hey, this is a problem!" and everybody gets all high and mighty yelling, "CHECK THE NOTAMS!" Somebody else says, "Jesus this guy doesn't check NOTAMs?" "NOPE HE DOESN'T! UNSAFE PILOT! CALL HIM! HE'S NOT CHECKING NOTAMs!"
Did anyone question your ability?
TheAlchemist
Well-Known Member
Can you please tell us the story? It would help me and a bunch of other guys understand the ATC system better.
Cruise
Well-Known Member
BobDDuck
Island Bus Driver
DUUUDE... U R N l33t pylot. U c@n h07d gr8!
Sorry, I am slightly giddy about actually getting home today. That said, I would also like to know the circumstances that ATC gave you a number for requesting a hold. I've had to do it a few times for fuel burn reasons or working out a MX/passenger issue.
Sorry, I am slightly giddy about actually getting home today. That said, I would also like to know the circumstances that ATC gave you a number for requesting a hold. I've had to do it a few times for fuel burn reasons or working out a MX/passenger issue.
tgrayson
New Member
This isn't a court of law, so we don't need conclusive evidence. The circumstantial evidence is good.
The regional guys seem willing to admit there is a potential problem. Do I "blame" them? No way. Professionals across every industry will ignore safety items when under tight time constraints; the possibility of accident seems remote, but the penalty of delay is certain. Who among us hasn't driven somewhat recklessly to an appointment to avoid being late? While extraordinary effort may compensate for system deficiencies, long term the system must be fixed.
I'm sure that some pilots are more conscientious than others about getting and applying NOTAMS, but I doubt the anyone is 100%. All pilots will fall at some point along a continuum, just as they will with any other characteristic. The points will probably cluster around some average that is lower than we would wish. The reason that more accidents don't result is that the system, overall, is pretty forgiving of errors. For disaster to strike generally requires that many things go wrong at one time.
kellwolf
Piece of Trash
John, I think it was the "sometimes legs are too short" thing that got everyone off on the wrong track. I think that's what started the "it doesn't matter how long the leg is, you should check it." Like a lot of internet forums stuff, something got lost in the translation. Like I said last night, I highly doubt you'd do something like ignoring NOTAMS, and I'd put my family on a plane you were flying without a second thoght. Given our past history, I'd be a little hesitant to get on the plane with you MYSELF. 
I can't believe I'm gonna say this, but PCL actually does this system quite well. We get NOTAMS right under the WX for the departure stations, followed by the destination and enroute ones after that. Each NOTAM is seprated by a double space, they're clear, concise and easy to scan to eliminate the ones that don't really apply (like RNAV, VOR and NDB approaches if you're gonna be doing a visual), and they've even started adding braking action reports at the very end along with who reported it and what source it came from. Came in handy today.
Me: "1/4" ice and snow on all the ramps and taxiiways in OMA."
CA: "How do you know that?"
Me: "Read it in the NOTAMs."
CA: "Wha.....Huh. Look at that."
BTW, I checked. The raised DH for 36L IS in the NOTAM package. But, since the nearest cloud was in Nebraska today, it didn't really apply to us.
I can't believe I'm gonna say this, but PCL actually does this system quite well. We get NOTAMS right under the WX for the departure stations, followed by the destination and enroute ones after that. Each NOTAM is seprated by a double space, they're clear, concise and easy to scan to eliminate the ones that don't really apply (like RNAV, VOR and NDB approaches if you're gonna be doing a visual), and they've even started adding braking action reports at the very end along with who reported it and what source it came from. Came in handy today.
Me: "1/4" ice and snow on all the ramps and taxiiways in OMA."
CA: "How do you know that?"
Me: "Read it in the NOTAMs."
CA: "Wha.....Huh. Look at that."
BTW, I checked. The raised DH for 36L IS in the NOTAM package. But, since the nearest cloud was in Nebraska today, it didn't really apply to us.
tgrayson
New Member
Stone Cold
Well-Known Member
Oh really...just curious as to what source??? It's not showing up on fltplan.com, and I'm just curious as to if they pulled the NOTAM and it's no longer valid, or if fltplan.com isn't showing it...it usually shows all pertinent information.Except the NOTAM is for 36R.
fltplan.com said:
sorrygottarunway
Well-Known Member
I have an interesting story for this. I had to divert to CHO due to visibility in IAD being to low. No big deal, but we still had to do the approach to CHO. On our notams, it stated alternate missed approach instructions to what was published on the chart. The notam also said WIE UNTIL UFN. So since we had a few seconds we happened to query the controller on it. He responded that he hadn't ever heard of such a notam, and read back from the chart that he had pinned to his desk the published missed. Then he said that if we went missed, disregard both notams and published and just climb straight ahead to 4000 ft.
Talk about effectiveness. I'll agree the system has to change, but its up to you and the dispatcher to pick out the NOTAMs useful. Even if you think something doesn't apply to you, it will still be your fault if it is somehow concluded that the ignorance was a contributing factor to an accident/incident.
Talk about effectiveness. I'll agree the system has to change, but its up to you and the dispatcher to pick out the NOTAMs useful. Even if you think something doesn't apply to you, it will still be your fault if it is somehow concluded that the ignorance was a contributing factor to an accident/incident.
Dugie8
Well-Known Member
This isn't a court of anything it is a forum for learning. That learning could have been just as effectively facilitiated without assumptions about what other pilots are doing based off of one person's observation of a small percentage of all flights into that paticular approach.
Why are we so quick to jump to a conclusion and burn other pilots at the stake for something we don't have all the facts about??
Of course we as pilots make mistakes and miss stuff, I probably miss at least one detail that pertains to the flight on every flight, there is a lot of information to digest, things get missed. That still doesn't give us carte blanche/blanch/whatever to sit in judgement of act we don't witness or have full facts of and one person's observation is hardly circumstantial (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circumstantial_evidence).
