Over Here… Over Here…

[SteveC]

Re: Over Here… Over Here…

So SteveC, you've seen the thread. Care to give us an official reason why the forum has moved? I think it's a fair question.

I don't have a clue.

As a Moderator I don't have anything to do with the income/expense side of the website, and I think it's probably better that I don't.

 

[MFT1Air]

Sounds like management consultant / contractor speak to me. It makes perfect sense on the surface, but beyond the buzz words, is a little more complicated in the real world. The route cause of all the problems is the owner of the school. The approach that you're suggesting is the polar opposite of how he runs his business. He'd rather spend his time stamping on the complainers than tackling the issues they are complaining about. Probably why the forum is now such an obscure location. Most forms of change have to be driven by the man at the top and this needs him to understand the real problems here. Just ain't gonna happen.

So SteveC, you've seen the thread. Care to give us an official reason why the forum has moved? I think it's a fair question.

Actually Florida_Flyer, not trying or attempting to be disrespectful when I say this but, your comment, "The approach that you're suggesting is the polar opposite of how he runs his business. He'd rather spend his time stamping on the complainers than tackling the issues they are complaining about. is probably the most constructive post I've personally seen from you in awhile, for it provide something definitive to work with in order to effect a change or an improvement in his modus operandi.

Just a thought. . .

. . .oh, and you're right. The words are management words utilized to effect positive change; listen to the voices in the trenches, then work to put those words into positive action.

Sorry, my degree is in management NOT aviation related, although I "grew up" with a blue collar mentality having experienced firsthand what the workers do to survive paycheck to paycheck on $288 a month.

 

[surreal1221]

Yep. . .the other terms I can think of immediately are "continuous improvement" and "Lean Six Sigma."

Identify a problem or the perception of one and work to resolve it. Positive thinking usually results in a positive resolution.

Well said.

i think im too stupid to understand what the hell you're talking about. dont bother explaining it.

Is it really that hard to understand? Are you able to comprehend an IFR clearance?

 

[Cruise]

All i am saying is that they (Cruise and Shorefly) contribute valuable information here, albeit negative, still VALUABLE to a prospective student. This is much unlike what you're going get out of FloridaFlyer or NickH.

I know those two guys, and have a lot of respect for them both(Cruise and Shorefly that is).

Ok, guess I need to chime in on this one! Like I've said in the past, the school has MANY negative aspects. Management is number #1 culprit....but you know what...they OWN the school and can operate it any way they see fit. Does it make it right? No, sure doesn't. Do I think it could be a much better school with small changes in 'corporate culture/ attitude,' YES.
A few example to substantiate my opinions:

• Mike's habit of throwing temper tantrums and grounding the entire fleet because someone squawks something on a plane. When only a few days earlier Mike holds a meeting saying he needs things squawked to know what needs to be repaired.
• TJ being completely unapproachable for questions, depending on her mood that day. WE (students/ instructors) are what keep the school running by bringing money in. No money in = No money to pay for your Jaguar TJ.
• TJ again...along the same line as above. She is generally nicer to students...since they have the money. Once you become an instructor, you've now become a liability to the books....you mean we actually want to be paid?????
• Peggy running the housing. For a period of time, she'd just drop in on the houses, unannounced and do 'inspections.' She'd say this needs to be picked up, that needs to be cleaned. WHOA! I'm paying to live here......It's MY place now. Fortunately, enough people complained about this and I do believe that's been resolved.
• Mike changing policy at a moments notice. This falls into the temper tantrum area as well. An example...student flattens a tire while practicing landings......without warning, the student is told THEY have to pay for the tire or they can leave the school. Those were the options presented (pay for it or leave). It's a training environment.....flat tires are going to happen.

My biggest complaint with Mike is that he flat out lied to me about refunding my remaining funds. It's not much...~$700 + interest it's been earning, but it's MINE and he said he'd get it back to me. [SIZE=-2]Wonder if I'll get the interest that money's been earning during the past years???? I should, they've been holding MY money (in an interest bearing account)....I deserve that too.[/SIZE] When I'd call, he'd avoid me. Once I got through to him, he attempted to put me on hold (didn't work) and told the receptionist he didn't want to talk to me (but it was me he was talking to). In fact, he did that twice on the same phone call. Finally, his third attempt to put me on hold, was successful.
I performed a number of extra duties for him during my time there. This is the thanks I've been shown! Um, yeah, thanks for that Mike!
[SIZE=-2]Mike's servant/ employee, Josh, has since contacted me saying they'd look into it. Should I receive my refund that was supposed to be given to me only 2 1/2 years ago. I'll be certain to mention that in a post.


[/SIZE] Now, those are just a few examples......there are many more, but that's plenty to get the idea. The Aviator has it's negatives, of course. But I'd venture to guess it doesn't really matter where you train, all schools have negatives. Question is, can you deal with them and do the positives outweigh the negatives????

In summation, all those negatives aside, my experience at the Aviator was a POSITIVE one. I did enjoy my time there (for the most part)....but I was thrilled to get out too. During my tenure, I learned a great deal and met great people. Many will be my friends for life.



Hey GR...thanks for the vote of confidence. How's things? You enjoying your ERJ????

 

[MFT1Air]

Ok, guess I need to chime in on this one! Like I've said in the past, the school has MANY negative aspects. Management is number #1 culprit....but you know what...they OWN the school and can operate it any way they see fit. Does it make it right? No, sure doesn't. Do I think it could be a much better school with small changes in 'corporate culture/ attitude,' YES.
A few example to substantiate my opinions:

• Mike's habit of throwing temper tantrums and grounding the entire fleet because someone squawks something on a plane. When only a few days earlier Mike holds a meeting saying he needs things squawked to know what needs to be repaired.
• TJ being completely unapproachable for questions, depending on her mood that day. WE (students/ instructors) are what keep the school running by bringing money in. No money in = No money to pay for your Jaguar TJ.
• TJ again...along the same line as above. She is generally nicer to students...since they have the money. Once you become an instructor, you've now become a liability to the books....you mean we actually want to be paid?????
• Peggy running the housing. For a period of time, she'd just drop in on the houses, unannounced and do 'inspections.' She'd say this needs to be picked up, that needs to be cleaned. WHOA! I'm paying to live here......It's MY place now. Fortunately, enough people complained about this and I do believe that's been resolved.
• Mike changing policy at a moments notice. This falls into the temper tantrum area as well. An example...student flattens a tire while practicing landings......without warning, the student is told THEY have to pay for the tire or they can leave the school. Those were the options presented (pay for it or leave). It's a training environment.....flat tires are going to happen.

My biggest complaint with Mike is that he flat out lied to me about refunding my remaining funds. It's not much...~$700 + interest it's been earning, but it's MINE and he said he'd get it back to me. [SIZE=-2]Wonder if I'll get the interest that money's been earning during the past years???? I should, they've been holding MY money (in an interest bearing account)....I deserve that too.[/SIZE] When I'd call, he'd avoid me. Once I got through to him, he attempted to put me on hold (didn't work) and told the receptionist he didn't want to talk to me (but it was me he was talking to). In fact, he did that twice on the same phone call. Finally, his third attempt to put me on hold, was successful.
I performed a number of extra duties for him during my time there. This is the thanks I've been shown! Um, yeah, thanks for that Mike!
[SIZE=-2]Mike's servant/ employee, Josh, has since contacted me saying they'd look into it. Should I receive my refund that was supposed to be given to me only 2 1/2 years ago. I'll be certain to mention that in a post.[/SIZE]


Now, those are just a few examples......there are many more, but that's plenty to get the idea. The Aviator has it's negatives, of course. But I'd venture to guess it doesn't really matter where you train, all schools have negatives. Question is, can you deal with them and do the positives outweigh the negatives????

In summation, all those negatives aside, my experience at the Aviator was a POSITIVE one. I did enjoy my time there (for the most part)....but I was thrilled to get out too. During my tenure, I learned a great deal and met great people. Many will be my friends for life.



Hey GR...thanks for the vote of confidence. How's things? You enjoying your ERJ????

Thanks immensely, Cruise. You've provided me with a very detailed list of negative experiences during your tenure there. Of note to me is the fact you're still waiting for a refund of monies owed to you by the school. That's interesting and rather disconcerting.

I can utilize your comments to compile a list of questions one can ask the school during a visit to see if these items can be resolved.

- Noteworthy is to document how quickly after my departure from the school may I expect a refund of unused monies. It should be immediate in my opinion, but I'd be compelled to have management document this fact to avoid issues later. In the meantime, may I recommend small claims court? If there's a bunch of you, perhaps you can place a lien on some of his property.

- Additionally, is student pilot insurance required for students who fly their airplanes? I ask because if, for example, there's damage to an aircraft, it should be known upfront who is liable rather than after the fact. This point of fact should be documented somewhere to avoid the confrontation and surprise of being told I'd have to reimburse perhaps a flat tire or prop strike.

- Unannounced inspections. Is that documented somewhere? Ari-Ben isn't the military, and even now, the military has cracked down on infringing upon the privacy of their people in their living accomodations. I don't care of you're managing housing or not; I don't want you in my abode unless you have express permission by me to do so.

Just a thought or two. . .

 

[Gonzorox]

As i learned, during a crashpad disaster story(Kailuaboy and Manolo know about this) from an Xjet captain who is in real estate. A landlord is NOT allowed to enter the property without permission from the rentees. I don't know how they circumvent the law, that is, if they are indeed legally entering the property. I always thought it was a little odd when I was staying at their housing.

Then again, if I were the landlord, and I knew people were knocking doors down, putting holes in the wall, driving their cars into the houses, I would probably break the law as well.

 

[Cruise]

As i learned, during a crashpad disaster story(Kailuaboy and Manolo know about this) from an Xjet captain who is in real estate. A landlord is NOT allowed to enter the property without permission from the rentees. I don't know how they circumvent the law, that is, if they are indeed legally entering the property. I always thought it was a little odd when I was staying at their housing.

Then again, if I were the landlord, and I knew people were knocking doors down, putting holes in the wall, driving their cars into the houses, I would probably break the law as well.

Well, I certainly agree. I'd figure out some way to have the renters removed via court order provided I can prove negligent damage was occurring.
Unfortunately, this wasn't the case in the student housing.....at least I'm not aware of anything like that. Were people destroying things in the houses? It certainly wasn't going on in my house....in fact, we kept it very neat and clean.

 

[MFT1Air]

Then again, if I were the landlord, and I knew people were knocking doors down, putting holes in the wall, driving their cars into the houses, I would probably break the law as well.

I believe that's the exception and not the norm. More significantly, problems like that are easy to resolve with either a move-in deposit and a move out refund with inspections before and after.

As for the car driving into the house, that's car insurance liability or civil/criminal action. . .all without emotional consternation unless I lose the court case.

 

[woog315]

The housing situation has definitely calmed, although I still believe they are breaking the law by occasionally entering without notice.

For a while though it seemed Peggy was in the house nearly every day. I moved out of his housing after about 5 months there because I couldn't stand having people come into my house while I wasn't there and rearrange my stuff and leave notes on my door telling me to clean my room. It was ridiculous and one of the things that really pissed me off about the place.

 

[MFT1Air]

The housing situation has definitely calmed, although I still believe they are breaking the law by occasionally entering without notice.

For a while though it seemed Peggy was in the house nearly every day. I moved out of his housing after about 5 months there because I couldn't stand having people come into my house while I wasn't there and rearrange my stuff and leave notes on my door telling me to clean my room. It was ridiculous and one of the things that really pissed me off about the place.

Well, unless there's a legal reason to have this person in my apartment, an anonymous phone call to the police to investigate the possibility of someone trespassing is in order. That'll stop that behavior fast.

It's not a frat house; no one tells me to clean my room. She's a housing coordinator. Show me where it says she can enter my premise without notice or authorization and I'll deal with it directly. If it's not written, please beware of the potential for negative consequences for that improper behavior.

 

[Kristie]

So SteveC, you've seen the thread. Care to give us an official reason why the forum has moved? I think it's a fair question.

Forum was moved because advertising stopped. simple as that.

 

[Gonzorox]

Forum was moved because advertising stopped. simple as that.

Can't say I don't blame old Mike... paying to have a forum in the spotlight just to host a bichfest. Too bad, I guess... it was this site that enlightened me to the Aviator. Now they're in the subtitles.

 

[derg]

My guess would be the owners were tired of the pissing match that occurs in its forum and may have decided to not support the site because of that.

Correcto.

Seriously. People acted like children and I can see why they wouldn't want to be associated with the website.

 

[MFT1Air]

Correcto.

Seriously. People acted like children and I can see why they wouldn't want to be associated with the website.

So, let me understand this just a little, and I'll use passive voice to address it.

Advertising dollars for the organization were pulled, so therefore, with this thread moved to the Flight Training/Flight Academies/Ari Ben Aviator, Inc. section, the organization, by default, is receiving FREE advertising.

With the negative, unsupported comments in a few members' postings, yep - that's going to cause a torrid of potential students to run away from Ari-Ben and ruin the business. Yep, people interested in attending Ari-Ben are going to read those negative posts and gain total insight into what the organization can provide to them and decide not to attend even with all the other posts saying how beneficial the school is for them.

They are not going to read about EVERY OTHER SCHOOL, ACADEMY or FBO with individuals who post, relatively speaking, THE SAME NEGATIVE COMMENTS about price, reliability of equipment, instructor competency, etc.

Don't know this Mike person, but I bet he's smiling right now. Seems to me as if he's saved some money at Doug's expense.

. . .conspiracy theory. Wonder if that was the intent initially? Wonder if he paid someone to post negative comments to pull his advertising yet still get the attention? Sorry. . .let me caveat that final statement with -

 

[Florida_Flyer]

Sorry to hear about the loss of the Aviator ad revenue. Obviously, I am partly responsble for this and if you have some means by which I can donate money I'll give what I can afford. I think it was about a bit more than people acting like kids that caused him to pull the plug. More like too many painful truths being told time and time again. It's the same old Mike Cohen strategy. Ignore the real problems and concentrate on shooting / gagging the messenger.

 

[Maximilian_Jenius]

So, let me understand this just a little, and I'll use passive voice to address it.

Advertising dollars for the organization were pulled, so therefore, with this thread moved to the Flight Training/Flight Academies/Ari Ben Aviator, Inc. section, the organization, by default, is receiving FREE advertising.

With the negative, unsupported comments in a few members' postings, yep - that's going to cause a torrid of potential students to run away from Ari-Ben and ruin the business. Yep, people interested in attending Ari-Ben are going to read those negative posts and gain total insight into what the organization can provide to them and decide not to attend even with all the other posts saying how beneficial the school is for them.

They are not going to read about EVERY OTHER SCHOOL, ACADEMY or FBO with individuals who post, relatively speaking, THE SAME NEGATIVE COMMENTS about price, reliability of equipment, instructor competency, etc.

Don't know this Mike person, but I bet he's smiling right now. Seems to me as if he's saved some money at Doug's expense.

. . .conspiracy theory. Wonder if that was the intent initially? Wonder if he paid someone to post negative comments to pull his advertising yet still get the attention? Sorry. . .let me caveat that final statement with -

My guess would be now that it is no longer a paid advertiser it doesnt get the DT gold seal of approval.

I've heard he does CIA type investigations before a school can advertise here on JC.

So now it's like it in the list of "other" schools. It's still on the board, but not a so called gold seal school supported by Jetcareers.

So it's kinda, take at your own risk, and do youre own research. Not that one shouldn't anyway.

*Simply my unexpert opinion.

 

[MFT1Air]

So it's kinda, take at your own risk, and do youre own research. Not that one shouldn't anyway.

*Simply my unexpert opinion.[/quote}

:yeahthat:

In so few words, you've got my respect! :rawk:Kinda wish I would have said what you said 30 posts previous.

 

[Maximilian_Jenius]

So it's kinda, take at your own risk, and do youre own research. Not that one shouldn't anyway.

*Simply my unexpert opinion.[/quote}

:yeahthat:

In so few words, you've got my respect! :rawk:Kinda wish I would have said what you said 30 posts previous.

Ahhh, thanks bro. Much love!

 

[surreal1221]

So the owners, instead of addressing the issues that were being brought up here on JC decided to NOT address to issues, and instead just pull the advertising funding instead?

So - in the end, none of the issues will be fixed?

That's cool.

 

[MFT1Air]

So the owners, instead of addressing the issues that were being brought up here on JC decided to NOT address to issues, and instead just pull the advertising funding instead?

So - in the end, none of the issues will be fixed?

That's cool.

There'll be fixed. . . now, to what degree of improvement, I can't speak to directly. There are a lot of smart people who come unto this forum seeking solid, informative information. . .ask about GIA, for example. Believe me when I say there'll be directed to this and other posts for an informed perspective. I know I would.

For example, interested potential aviators have asked me about careers in this field. While I can't speak to it first hand, Jetcareers is a forum I refer them for information. There are a lot of smart people on this forum who others guaranteed can learn. If they read the threads, they'll go down there asking informed questions and definitely reading possible aberrant personalities.