Pinnacle???

[Fly4Pay]

So what if me and my Army showed up to do your job for 50% an hour less than you do right now? You were let go from your company because a more economical solution was provided to your companies work force needs and you lost your job.

Because you lost your job you lost your house.

Try to remove emotion from that.

I'm not saying REMOVE emotion--I'm saying you have to see the logic as well. Like it or not, the airlines are a BUSINESS. We work there, and we have a vested interest, but it's not our call. The stockholders own the business. If they can hire folks to do it cheaper, they have the right (and the responsibility) to do exactly that.

Would I like it if I got canned? Heck, no! Therefore, it's up to ME to make sure that what I provide to the company (my experience, training, and judgment) are more valuable to the company than just a body in a seat. Sadly, that's where a lot of folks seem to stop thinking--with the "I got mine" mentality. As an employee, each of us has to earn our job every day.

I speak on this from experience--I'm a business owner, as well as a pilot. There are folks out there who could do the sales jobs that I have open cheaper than the folks who are in them--but not better. And that's why my employees have their jobs. Now, if the cheaper folks were also the better folks, do you think I'd keep the more expensive ones, just because they were there first? Not if I intend to make money. I'd have to say to my employees, "Sorry, but here's what the job is worth. Take it or leave it." Sorry, but that's a fact of life.

So if you want to be sure your job is secure, you have to be willing to a) be the best you can be at your job, not just min run it, and b) be flexible enough to understand that a job is not an entitlement, and sometimes wages go down. Sucks, but it's true.

That's why you have backup plans upon backup plans. If my airline folds tomorrow, I have other options. If those options fail, I will make NEW options--because I refuse to put my life in the hands of others.

If you haven't read Stephen Covey's "Seven Habits of Highly Effective People," I highly recommend it. The first habit is "be proactive." By that, he means that you have (and accept) responsibility for yourself, your actions, and your emotions. If you think that it's the employer's fault you lose your house, you're mistaken. I fully understand that my life is up to me, and if I want to succeed, I gotta take charge of my life and make it happen. That's why my family and I literally "have it made"--because I refuse to accept anything else.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

Very well -- the interview board might not care.

But if one of them had tried to get the jumpseat on my last trip with a captain who had not only the master scab list in his bag but also a complete list of the disputed Freedom "A" list at Mesa, a complete list of GoJets pilots, and Gulfstream and whatever else. I do not even know where he got them all but there were a few thousand names he wasn't about to let on his plane.

He may have had a master scab list and a Freedom "A" list. There's no way he had a list of Gulfstream Academy graduates. That list is non-existant, so I'm gonna raise the BS flag. Even if that list existed, it would be inaccurate and could never be up to date. At Gulfstream Airlines, some are Academy graduates, others are street hires. There's no way the airline will provide the seniority list to show you who is on there. Not to mention, the 250 hr pilots aren't even on the seniority list, so really, you have no way of knowing if a guy went to Gulfstream Academy unless you ask him.

I can't believe kids on this board are interchanging and considering scabbing the same as going to Gulfstream or Jet U.

Ridiculous. And pure BS.

Regarding the argument that was made a few posts up about PFT not making a difference because it's all about who you know:

If a person wants to be a school bus driver and they are good friends with the person who manages the school buses in that district, should the applicant not care about their own driving record? After all -- they're buddybuddy with the one who's going to get them hired, why worry about speeding tickets, running red lights, and DUIs?

That's about all I need to know about their character.

Have some standards.

You're mixing apples and oranges. A background check is done for EVERYONE, no matter how many "buddy buddy" pilots a guy has within an airline who walked in his resume. If you have a sketchy background in terms of lots of speeding tickets, running red lights, and DUIS, the airline will rescind your conditional jof offer... and this is irrespective of where you came from (from the street, Gulfstream, Jet U, etc).

 

[jackal278]

^Fly4pay I love your avatar

I would never say it's wrong for someone to go to a JetU or ATP, but I would never recommend it. There are plenty of jobs out there that don't require specialized training that will get you where you need to go. And I advocate doing it for as cheap as possible. As long as the quality of your training is not cheap. I'm not going to get into a philosophical argument over paying for a job. I understand both sides.

I'm training at pinnacle right now and here's what I see so far:

The pace that they're teaching us is rediculous and the only way anyone can be successful is to study hard on their own and know what is expected of them.

My sim partner went to JetU and has the flows and systems down very well. At this point it's in each of our interests to do well. So he's helping me get ahead by explaining the flows and the purpose of each item.

I don't know how good a pilot my partner is because I've never flown with him. I'd like to think I'm a better pilot because I've spent the last two years getting paid to fly all over the eastern US.

But at this point in the ball game he's ahead, and the only thing that matters to me at this moment is passing the oral and checkride.

As I think was mentioned before, captains aren't going to care where you did you're training. They want to see if you can fly and whether you know you're ####. I doubt this would ever happen, "Hi I'm captain joe blow, did you go to JetU? Yes?!?! Sorry I can't fly with you!"

I've never made enough to afford going to a JetU nor would I choose to. But I am reaping the benefits right now so I have nothing bad to say.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

I don't know how good a pilot my partner is because I've never flown with him. I'd like to think I'm a better pilot because I've spent the last two years getting paid to fly all over the eastern US.

But at this point in the ball game he's ahead, and the only thing that matters to me at this moment is passing the oral and checkride.

LOL! I love it! Your definition of a better pilot is one who gets paid to fly, which is followed up by 'all that matters is I pass the oral and checkride.'

Face it... anyone can memorize and pass the oral. If you can play Sega and are not too bad a stick, you'll learn and pass the sim. Those two items don't make the "better pilot."

I'm sorry, but the *better* pilot would have said, "all that matters to me is to learn everything I can to be a safe and competent pilot once I get on the line at Pinnacle."

That's what a "better" pilot would have said...

 

[H46Bubba]

LOL! I love it! Your definition of a better pilot is one who gets paid to fly, which is followed up by 'all that matters is I pass the oral and checkride.'

Face it... anyone can memorize and pass the oral. If you can play Sega and are not too bad a stick, you'll learn and pass the sim. Those two items don't make the "better pilot."

I'm sorry, but the *better* pilot would have said, "all that matters to me is to learn everything I can to be a safe and competent pilot once I get on the line at Pinnacle."

That's what a "better" pilot would have said...

Bingo!:bandit:

 

[Brand X]

The FACT is that VAST MAJORITY of us pilots at the MAJORS could care LESS where you got your flight training. MOST pilots at the MAJORS have never heard of Gulfstream or Jet U. We just DON'T care. Heck, UPS hired a GO JET pilot last month. If you read the common sentiment of most aviation message boards, this guy was branded a lepper by going to GO JET and had NO future at EVER making it to a reputable major. Once again, as long as you are a competent pilot and an ok person, we DON'T care which flight school you went to!!!

 

[Fly4Pay]

^Fly4pay I love your avatar

Why thank you!

I would never say it's wrong for someone to go to a JetU or ATP, but I would never recommend it.

Oh, me neither. That wasn't what was causing all the kerfuffle here, though. But learning at an FBO doesn't mean you're a better pilot either. Or flying cargo. Or being military. Or being a CFI. There are good pilots and sucky pilots from ALL walks of life.

I refuse to dismiss a person just because of where they came from just as strongly as I refuse to dismiss a person just because of their gender, color of their skin, or taste in music (though that one is close )... lemme see what they know and what they can do. How they got there isn't relevant.

 

[amorris311]

hmmm that is interesting. makes sense but seems like others have a different idea.

 

[DE727UPS]

"I don't know how good a pilot my partner is because I've never flown with him. I'd like to think I'm a better pilot because I've spent the last two years getting paid to fly all over the eastern US"

You'll be ahead of him during IOE, and way ahead of him in your first 200 hours.

 

[DE727UPS]

I had a UPS Capt email me the other day telling me his son was interested in GoJet and wondered what I knew about it. I told him my understanding of the situation and why GoJet is a bad choice. He basically told me people at internet message boards don't have a clue and are nothing but a bunch of whiners. My response was "well, I guess you shouldn't have asked me, then"

I'm sure his son is at GoJet by now and will have an in at UPS when he hits 1000 TPIC.

It's true most major pilots have never heard of GoJet, Gulfstream, or JetU. But if you sit down and explain to them the implications of "buying a job" or "starting an alter ego airline to get around a contract", well, these things they understand and have strong opinions about.

Ask any UPS pilot about Star Air in Europe or Supply Chain Solutions (sort of UPS) using China Air to fly Asia to Nashville. Ask any UPS pilot if they think it would be a good idea for UPS to open the right seat to low time pilots who are willing to pay $100,000 for 757 time. They would think you're nuts.

Personally, If a guy PFJed at Gulfstream, I'd certainly care....

 

[jackal278]

I'm sorry, but the *better* pilot would have said, "all that matters to me is to learn everything I can to be a safe and competent pilot once I get on the line at Pinnacle."quote]

I agree with you and apologize for not having put it so eloquently. But what was on your mind when you were going for one of you're checkrides? You have been on at least one checkride right? What did you think leading up to it? You wanted to pass the checkride! Right? If an pilot is not safe or compentent and doesn't know his stuff, he'll fail plain and simple.

I've spent 2 years of my professional career being the safest most competent pilot I can be and I'm not going to have you suggest publicly that I'm "unsafe and just trying to do the bare minimum".

My assumtion that I might be a better pilot was only based on having substanially more time and job experience than my sim partner. That's it.

What I said was not an attack at people who go to those schools nor was it trying to boost my own ego. But you've chosen to take what I said in a negative light and that's too bad.

If you still want to find something bad to say about me go ahead. I'm going to go be productive and study or practice with my sim partner.

 

[surreal1221]

But wait... you said:



Now you're saying that working for free (which isn't paying for a job) isn't good either. What about if they work for $5 per hour? Is that okay?

Do you see my point yet? You have drawn an arbitrary (and apparently flexible) line in the sand that exists only because you feel you are getting the short end of the stick. There's no logic or business sense to it, only emotion...

Jesus christ, never thought I'd say this. . .but damn.

How about this.

I don't want anyone to be sitting in a seat, if they are taking the seat from someone who SHOULD be being paid to sit there. $5 an hour, fine, what-the-hell-ever. So long as that person didn't pay Company X $30K to sit there, and make $5 an hour I'm fine. I won't blacklist, or suggest blacklisting that person. I'll just raise hell about the companies piss-poor working standards and pay.

Happy now?

Or do you still not see my "line?" As I think I've made it quite dark, bold, and of a solid black type.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

What I said was not an attack at people who go to those schools nor was it trying to boost my own ego. But you've chosen to take what I said in a negative light and that's too bad.

If you still want to find something bad to say about me go ahead. I'm going to go be productive and study or practice with my sim partner.

No, I didn't want to say bad stuff about you. I took your post in the literal sense. I have nothing bad to say to you. Just kick butt in Pinnacle training, and good luck in your checkride! I have a feeling you'll do fine.

Jesus christ, never thought I'd say this. . .but damn.

How about this.

I don't want anyone to be sitting in a seat, if they are taking the seat from someone who SHOULD be being paid to sit there.

"taking" the seat from someone who should be being paid to sit there is an opinion. It's actually a little incorrect if you are talking about Gulfstream. Even their 30k paying F/Os get $8/hr to sit in the right seat. So, they are getting paid. The F/Os just had to pay 30k though to get that opportunity.

There are plenty of unpaid internships at companies (even engineering compaines!). I know some engineers who couldn't understand how kids would come to the company for 3-4 months during the summer and work for free, 40 hrs a week, doing engineering work with engineers that were making $60k+.

It's just how it is. Some people are willing to work for peanuts to get somewhere. Regional pay is more or less the same: sucky for F/Os.


But for you to suggest a blacklist for Gulfstream Academy graduates is pushing it.

1. No one is going to publish that list.

2. No one will update it.

3. No one can attest to its accuracy.

4. And finally, most pilots don't care. Like it's been said before, 90% (or more) ailrine pilots don't even know what Gulfstream Academy is.


But like I've said, I am against Gulfstream Academy. You shouldn't pay 30k to get the opportunity to sit in the right seat of a B1900.


However, Jet U and ALLATPs are flight schools that only guarantee interviews, nothing else. It's up to you to earn the job by passing the interview. No "right seat" is guaranteed here. So, I don't have anything against Jet U, ALLATPs, and MAPD.

 

[Fly4Pay]

Ask any UPS pilot if they think it would be a good idea for UPS to open the right seat to low time pilots who are willing to pay $100,000 for 757 time. They would think you're nuts.

Yeah, well I'd agree with that. A low-timer is a low-timer, whether they went to Gulfstream, JetU, ERAU, or wherever. I don't think that's what is getting people's fur up here...

Personally, If a guy PFJed at Gulfstream, I'd certainly care....

But would you care enough to blacklist them? That's the part of this thread I took issue with. Blacklisting a scab is one thing--they broke the rules of the organization (the union) doing the blacklisting. I don't get as hot about it as some guys on here, but okay--I understand it.

Being pissed at a guy because he paid for his training instead of having an airline pay for it is a different issue, and to some degree, there's some sour grapes involved. There's no "contract" saying an airline has to pay for your training. If some airlines agreed to take you off the street and take you from no-timer to PPL to ATP, would that make the pilots at OTHER airlines "blacklistable", since they paid for their stuff? Same thing...

For instance, take somebody like Travolta. He has more money than he knows what to do with, so he buys a jet. Let's say he racks up 5,000 hours in the jet. Flies in weather. Flies oceanic. Becomes a very competent pilot. Does it all. If for some insanely stupid reason he decided to give up the life of a Hollywood star to be an airline pilot (probably because Kelly Preston really digs airline pilots--that's my story and I'm sticking to it), is he less qualified because he paid for his time rather than having an airline do it? I'd say no.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

By the way people, Pinnacle doesn't require pilots to pay for their training, and yes, Pinnacle pays $400/week and puts pilots in a hotel.


BUT

according to Pinnacle pilot's CBA (their contract), it CLEARLY states:

SECTION 11

TRAINING AND TESTING

A. COMPANY TRAINING

1. A pilot on the Pilots’ System Seniority List will not be required to pay for
any training or the use of any Company equipment.

2. At the Company’s discretion it may require a new hire pilot to pay for
training associated with a pilot’s first position with the Company.



So you see, even Pinnacle has the discretion to become PFT by and of itself.

Would they?

No, because they are hurting for pilots.

BUT, if this was an environment where pilots were plentiful and everyone was willing to work for low regional wages, you can bet Pinnacle management would charge pilots for their first position with the company... First Officer.

So, instead of pilots paying Jet U, they would directly pay Pinnacle Airlines... the true PFT.

 

[Brand X]

UPS has hired Gulfstream, GoJet and others that some on this board would call unmarketable due to where they received their training. My sim instructor was a PFT'er from ASA. Like I said in an earlier post, MOST major airline pilots DON'T care what flight school or regional you attended.

 

[surreal1221]

C_C,

I never questioned your JetU attendance, not once. And honestly, I could care less about JetU. They don't operate 19 seat airplanes for revenue like another "school"...GIA.

If, also, you read close enough. . .I said even if someone is paid $5 or $8 an hour, while paying the company $30k to be paid that silly wage. . .it's wrong. So yes, it is an opinion.

Deal with it.

People have extremely strong opinions when it comes to any discussion of PFJ/PFT. Get over it. Opinions exist - and you're not going to chance any of mine concerning PFJ/PFT.

 

[Brand X]

UPS has hired Gulfstream, GoJet and others that some on this board would call unmarketable due to where they received their training. My sim instructor was a PFT'er from ASA. Like I said in an earlier post, MOST major airline pilots DON'T care what flight school or regional you attended.

 

[Brand X]

UPS has hired Gulfstream, GoJet and others that some on this board would call unmarketable due to where they received their training. My sim instructor was a PFT'er from ASA. Like I said in an earlier post, MOST major airline pilots DON'T care what flight school or regional you attended.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

I never questioned your JetU attendance, not once. And honestly, I could care less about JetU. They don't operate 19 seat airplanes for revenue like another "school"...GIA.

If, also, you read close enough. . .I said even if someone is paid $5 or $8 an hour, while paying the company $30k to be paid that silly wage. . .it's wrong. So yes, it is an opinion.

Deal with it.

People have extremely strong opinions when it comes to any discussion of PFJ/PFT. Get over it. Opinions exist - and you're not going to chance any of mine concerning PFJ/PFT.

That's fine, I'm not gonna change your views, nor do I want to. I agree that Gulfstream Academy is bad in the sense you're basicaly paying for 250 hrs in a right seat of a B1900, therefore directly buying a job of at least 3 months.

Jet U, ALLATPs, etc, are just flight schools that guarantee interviews upon completion of training... nothing more.




Brand X, I agree with what you're saying (it is true, no one cares where you came from once you're already at a regional), but why are you reposting the same thing three times?