Jet Transition or CFI

Very good points Bob! I wasn't even thinking of the cost of getting the CFI, and I had thought the Jet program was 30 days long, and then figured it would take time to get an interview and go through the hiring process, and by then it would be pretty close to the same time as a CFI. I didn't catch that it was only 7 days long. There are definitely a lot of factors involved either way, and it's really hard to help someone w/o the additional info that you have already asked for. For example, when we were having a hard time deciding what was next, we had to take into account that while the jet program may have been faster than CFI, it would put my husband at an airline that he probably didn't want to work at, in a city he couldn't easily commute to, and moving the whole family isn't really an option. So we decided that to get to the desired end result, it would probably take about the same amount of time to have him CFI vs/ go to the jet program and work at an undesired airline for a year and then try to get to the desired airline. So while it was about the same time, the jet program would require him to be away from home more. So that's what we based our decision on. Looking back, however, due to the events that followed, it took a year for him to start CFI'ing, and he could possibly have been at the desired airline by now instead of being at least 9 months away from it. So the jet program may have actually been the better choice for us. Also, I think some people just aren't made to teach. I don't think it should be frowned upon to not desire to teach. If it makes more financial and long term sense to teach, then do it, but if it's something you really don't want to do, well, I don't think you should HAVE to do it just to be considered having paid your dues. It is a huge liability as well, and that's scary!
 
TheWife said:
6 months difference in seniority isn't going to be that significant most likely.
Click to expand...
Actually it could mean the difference between gainfully employed with benefits for him and his family... or...
wildfreightess said:
Where would you be if after the massive hiring comes an extensive furlough?
Click to expand...

It's all about the "what if's" in this field. Unfortunately the majority of the "what if's" tend to veer toward the negativity meter based on a few regionals going out off business and the normal up and down wave that this industry goes through on a fairly periodic basis.

"What if's" can be positive too... What if he makes it to a regional who's first year pay isn't "crap"? What if he gets a seniority number that prevents a furlough... or get's him off of reserve several months sooner... or get's him an upgrade a year earlier... or get's him to the major of his choice that much sooner... repeat the earlier "what if's" now.

I completely understand that none of us have the 100% foresight into the future of this industry... but... we don't have to just assume that it will be 100% bad, do we?

Bob
 
Get your CFI, instruct for a while, and then get your jet transition for free when you get hired at a regional.
 
I guess my problem with the RJ program (get there quicker) vs the CFI program (don't get there quicker) is that there is no question in my mind which one turns out a better pilot.

If a person has personal reasons that they need to do the RJ track, then, that's their business. But I hardly see "get your seniority number now" as a good reason to skip the process of becoming a better aviator before you start flying airline jets around.

I'm about putting the best possible qualified/experienced/seasoned guy in the seat next to me....period. Not much else matters.
 
Well thank you everyone for your comments. I greatly appreciate them all.

In my situation is not a case of not wanting to pay my dues or trying to skip any steps in becoming a better aviator.
I understand that no matter what one way or another I will have to pay my dues.

I also understand that it is a decision that only I can make.

My situation is as follows:
35yrs old, B.S. from ERAU
9yrs of Air Traffic Control Experience (Tower only)

The reason of me thinking about the CRJ is solely based on whether or not it can provide me with a better chance of actually making it through the initial training program at a regional airline that fly the CRJ's. I 've read in this forum that a lot of the new hires in some of the regionals (PSA) to be exact are washing out. So I don't want to put my self in a situation were I would end up without a job.

In summary What I wanted to know from people that are currently in the industry is that if a program like that actually helps, not to get the interview (I already have one), but to have a better chance of actually making it in the initial training. That's all.

Once again, Thank's everybody:D
 
DE727UPS said:
It's not really about dropping money for the RJ course. It's about whether you want to take the time to improve yourself as an aviator or pay the money to skip that step.
Click to expand...

Instruct!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Right now, with 405 hours, you barely meet the minimums (even with reduced hiring mins) for Trans States, PSA, Pinnacle, Piedmont (500 reduced to 300), and ASA (500 reduced to 400). So doing the jet transition course only makes you eligable for Piedmont and ASA above what you are already eligable for. Those are not the best regionals. You barely meet these requirements with 400 hours. If you get another 200 hours (maybe 2-3 months), you will add Comair, ExpressJet, Mesaba, Mesa, Commutair, Colgan, and Air Wisconsin. Basically you will meet just about every regional airlines minimums (except Skywest, Horizon, Republic, and Eagle) with just 200 more hours!!!! And you don't need to drop 6 thousands dollars!!

The jet transition course only makes you eligable for ASA and Piedmont. And that is BARELY eligable with no CFI time, you are unlikely to get hired at any of these airlines!! All you need is 200 more hours of CFI'ing (2-3 months), and you are then eligable for a bunch more airlines. And you will learn a lot!!


I wanted to comment on the current hiring window. You seem to be afraid that it will stop sometime soon. That is false. I want to dispell the rumor that this hiring window will stop anytime this DECADE!! Think about it. Right now all the regionals are hurting for pilots. Yet only 2 of the 6 legacy airlines are hiring! Just 2 of them. Imagine what happens when American, United, Northwest, and US Air begin to hire (in 1-2 years). American and United are the world's largest airlines, and they are not hiring. Also, none of the legacy carriers are expanding. Air Travel is expected to double in by 2020. The legacy carriers will need to expand and then hiring will be amplified! Check out this link to my pilot shortage thread. Lots of good facts. http://forums.jetcareers.com/general-topics/45281-real-pilot-shortage.html

Trust me. Don't worry about the hiring window closing on you. It will not close anytime this decade. Only a few of the majors are hiring, and there is currently a shortage. Imagine what will happen when they ALL start hiring in 1-2 years, and then expanding. Do not let this fear play into your decision. As some famous jedi once said, "Fear leads to the dark side." Don't let fear affect your decision!

One other thing... How much PIC time do you have? Do you know how much you need to upgrade. At most regionals, it is ICAO mins, which is 1500 hours PIC (or minimum 300 PIC and 1/2 credit for your SIC time). If you have 300 or less PIC, you need to go out and rent an airplane until you have 300 PIC, and even then you need 2400 hours of SIC time before you upgrade. That will be 3 years!! You could be delaying your upgrade because you don't have enough PIC time. That is another reason why CFI'ing is better than low time FO'ing!

Last thing. If you are worried about washing out of training, then you should definately CFI instead of doing the transition course. You learn the most when you teach it to someone else. CFI'ing will teach you the most, and be more effective in preventing you from washing out of the regionals!

Trust me, and EVERYONE else who responded to your question. Get your CFI and instruct. It will only take a few months to get where you want to go. It will also be cheaper (and you will make money from CFI'ing). You will have the PIC time necessary to upgrade (instead of staying a FO when you have seniority to upgrade to captain!:banghead: ). Also, you will still be around for this hiring window. It is not going away any time soon.
Good luck.
Let us know what you decide.
 
For what it's worth, i'm not putting any thought or consideration into flying for the regional airlines until I do at least 12 months of instructing. Thats just the way I was taught, and may be my bias.

Another thing is, I have my college degree. Too me, and in regards to my long term career goals, that is the ultimate rating. Thats Pvt-ATP and an RJ course combined. I don't care how dedicated you are, i'm certain there will be a large amount of these under 21 academy guys that have gone to the regionals that will not finish their degree online in four years, so although I may not have the "right" seniorioty #, if the opportunity arrises for me to apply for a major, I can do it in mininum time, while a lot of higher seniorioty guys won't be able to becuse lack of a degree.
 
"So I don't want to put my self in a situation were I would end up without a job."

At 400/100, either you have what it takes or you don't. You won't know that until you try. Certainly, having more experience would help. Most people say the RJ courses are a waste of time and why pay for something you don't need. Could you take a LOA from the FAA instead of quitting outright? That way you'd have a fall back.

Also, all the talk about "life being over" if you wash out of 121 training at low time? I just don't think so. It might be over as a low timer, but, you'd have to put it behind you, go ahead an instruct or whatever to build up your time, and then press on when you have more experience.

If a guy washed out of PSA with 400/100, I'd say you probably couldn't walk over to CoEx with 400/100 and get hired. You'd have to bridge the gap. That make sense?
 
D_R_ATC said:
I 've read in this forum that a lot of the new hires in some of the regionals (PSA) to be exact are washing out. So I don't want to put my self in a situation were I would end up without a job.
Click to expand...

Others here have said the same thing more or less, but I'd be willing to bet most of the people washing out of training are the low time, 300-500 hr guys who didn't instruct, and those who do pass are the guys with some time instructing (or some other real-world experience). There's just no substitute, in my opinion, for the knowledge you gain by instructing for a year or so. Again in my opinion (and experience), if you want the best chance at not washing out of 121 training you'd do best to get your CFI and do some instructing.
 
Some pilots here may present the point that the RJ course may be something to consider. I have to disagree.

Some 7 day jet course is NO SUBSTITUTE for being a CFI (or any other flying experience at that).

I cant belive this is even being discussed.
 
meritflyer said:
Some 7 day jet course is NO SUBSTITUTE for being a CFI (or any other flying experience at that).
Click to expand...

I dont want to touch my certificate since the ink is still wet and may smudge, but I honestly feel like now I am at least 10 times the pilot I was before starting CFI training. This training has forced me to raise my personal standards of performance, what was once acceptable is now unacceptable. I have had to prepare myself to teach from every subject area in the book. But with all of that I still have a great deal to learn, and have a great deal of room to improve.

I feel like the experience would be worth it even if I never instruct anybody.
 
It has been an unfortunate situation for students around the US to get stuck with a CFI is who there to just build their time, get the hell out, and not care about their student's progress. Why would you want these types of guys "paying their dues." They are missing the best parts of instructing, IMO. If they don't want to do it, pass them on to the regionals.
 
I wouldn't be worried about the low mins going up any time soon. Even with the mins as low as they are, regionals are having trouble filling classes. If they could get enough people in class you wouldn't see all the "hiring incentives" being tossed out left and right. I know at my airline we can't even keep up with attrition right now. I don't know WHERE we're going to get the pilots to staff our Delta flying at a 5 crew per plane ratio. We're barely staffed at THREE crews per plane on the NWA flying (once you factor out vacations, military leaves, LOA and check airmen that don't fly the line).

As for which to do, easy choice: instruct. It makes you a better pilot (and aviator for those that feel the two are different). The RJ transition course isn't really a guarantee of a job, and it's the same you're gonna get at a regional for free. Personally, I wouldn't spend $6K on a program that gave me no real net gain. Spending the same amount on CFI ratings makes you marketable immediately while you're waiting for a regional to call. So, you've at least got income while building time instead of working at Build-A-Bear waiting for the regionals to knock on the door, getting no flying time and watching your currency slide away (true story from a CA I flew with, actually).

Now, if you don't want to instruct, then there are other jobs out there, you'll just have to dig harder to find them. Ferry pilots, banner towing, jump pilots and in some cities traffic watch are all generally lower time positions. Once you get some more time, then you can start looking at other options such as pipeline patrol and maybe a VFR 135 job. I think any of those build better skills and experience better than paying someone $6K to give you what you'd get for free. If you still feel the need to do a CRJ ground school.....let me know. I'll do it for $3K.
 
Thanks everyone!!!
for the time being, I'll continue with the CFI Training. I am almost done, so it would be a waste of time and money not to finish it.
:bandit:
 
I got hired with 450/310 multi, but thats also with 220hrs of dual given during 9 months of instructing at ATP. I just flew with a Captain the other day that asked me about my flight time, he was expecting me to say over 1,000hrs. When I told him what I got hired with, he said "Did you instruct?". I said yes, for 220hrs in a Seminole over a 9 month period. His response was " I can definitely tell you were a CFI. There is no way you'd be flying this well if you hadn't."

I didn't instruct long, but 220hrs is about how long it took me from zero hours to CFI. I can't tell you how much I learned and improved in just 100hrs of instructing. Get your CFI and teach aviation. Its a lot of fun, even when you don't fly. I couldn't even tell you how many hours of ground school I gave during my time working at ATP. I was teaching ground school 6-7 days a week for more hours then I was actually flying. Good experience, you'll thank yourself.
 
"Some 7 day jet course is NO SUBSTITUTE for being a CFI"

It is if you want a job NOW and don't want to "waste" time as a CFI (that's a Gulfstream marketing quote).

I see the RJ courses more as a way to buy an interview. That's really what you're doing otherwise there is no point. Some people buy interviews, other people earn the right to interview.

I know which one I'd rather be sitting next to....
 
kellwolf said:
I wouldn't be worried about the low mins going up any time soon.
Click to expand...

Depending on your definition of "soon" I think a person should be worried. The Age 65 rule is going to kill hiring at the majors, and thats what is driving the musical chairs we're in right now (as it always has, movement at the top causes flow at all levels). Add to that JetBlue is heading for a fall and I'm not as convinced as everybody else that SWA can do no wrong, and......

Now Auntie Marion says 2 years or so, but Congress is pushing for 1 year or less, and even if not ALL legacy pilots stick until 65, a substantial majority at the ex-bankrupt carriers pilots have to because they have no pension.

So I *think* when age 65 comes in it all comes to a grinding halt for about 5 years, but then it will pick right back up where it left off. So what does that mean - you've got between 1 and 2 years to find somewhere you can be happy for the next 5 years - because that's where you'll probably be sitting waiting for the next pilot hiring shortage.

And of course that's ALL predicated on the airlines not taking an economic dump in the next 6-7 years, not something I'd be all that willing to bet on.

So to return to the original question, and ignoring all the self-righteous guff about being a CFI and paying your dues, decide what gets you to where you want to be. I'd say if you'd be happy be a regional jet FO for 5 years, go for it, or a turboprop regional captain, but if you go the CFI route you may be a CFI for a while - and I think we can all agree what the world doesn't need is another time-building, bitter, bad at their job CFI.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top