The mentality of a "Fast-Track" program and low time commercial airline pilots...

I made this post a while ago, and I'm going to put it in Matt's thread along with this one. These are my concerns about the industry this days, which is taken much more from a training and education perspective than anything else.

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This is obviously old hat, and I'm pretty sure I'm going to get flamed for this one, but I've gotta say something. I'm sure somebody will accuse me of being bitter (even though I quite enjoy my job), and then somebody else will say that I'm not gettin' up with the get down with modern flight training these days (even though I was just flight instructing for 9 months at an FBO with 3 G1000 aircraft), but I but I think I need to say a few things anyways.

Is anybody else worried for the group of pilots that we're raising these days? We've got programs that are selling a dream (and loads of hype), packaged in an easy to use program that'll only cost you $XX,000. Zero to hero in 6 months, flying jets with anywhere from 250 to 600 hours. Maybe I'm old school, or maybe I'm just flying slant alpha freighters around, but I feel like the maturation process that used to accompany pilots is gone. Or worse yet, it's moved into the realm of a jet cockpit.

I'm worried that kids these days don't care about flying airplanes, they want to fly jets and nothing but. They have no interest in tail draggers, warbirds, floats, tundra tires, stick and rudder skills, NDB approaches (or heck even VOR approaches sometimes), maturing as a pilot, flying crappy equipment in horrible weather or finding out how great it feels to solo somebody as a primary instructor. Now to me, all of that is a damned shame. We've got guys that are so goal oriented, interested in flying nothing more than RJ's and then, if they get lucky, a 737 one day at a mainline carrier.

Now maybe I'm not normal in this reguard, but I'm not really looking forward to getting my first jet job right now. I enjoy flying airplanes...you know...without an autopilot, FMS or flight director. Now don't get me wrong, those seem like cool toys. In fact I'm probably a lot more geeky than most people (I'm sitting here typing this on a PC that I built, while my iBook is playing some 10 Years and my Linux box that I also built is server as a print server) and I'm sure I'd enjoy playing with those toys, but I've always wanted to be a PILOT, and not a systems operator. My last job was in IT and I spent a good part of it being a server administrator. Simply put, I wanted to hang myself either because I couldn't get the computers to do what I wanted them to, or because I was bored to death.

And speaking of "playing with toys," I also don't feel like enough people view this profession as just that, a profession. Guys don't have to earn much in this industry these days if you have the money throw down. You don't have to spend 2,000 hours instructing, and then 1,000 hours flying freight in the middle of the night in a beat up Beech 99 so that you might have the privilege of being able to fly at a turobprop commuter anymore (which BTW, RJ drivers are flying 50 seat jets when their pay scales are still based off those 19 seat pay scales from back in the day if anybody didn't realize that one already). I really, really enjoy teaching people how to fly airplanes. And I really, really enjoy flying airplanes; but it's a job to me. This is a skill that I use to earn a living, just like how I paid my bills in college with my computer knowledge. I'm afraid too many people look at flying as "something they love to do" so they'll do it for less than they deserve. I've seen people do it, myself included.

But then reality sets in and you realize you have bills to pay. I've seen it happen to more than a few folks that are stoked that they are finally getting paid to fly...for about a month. Then they realize that they only earned $800 that month and have to make a choice between paying their rent or their loan from flight training.

So what's the draw to getting to the end goal of flying a jet ASAP? The view? I've been on enough airliners, it's all about the same above a certain height (around 8,000' as far as I'm concerned). The chicks? Sorry, they don't dig pilots. The respect you get for commanding an 80,000 lbs., three story tall twin jet? Nope, people hand you their bags thinking you're a Skycap. Or maybe the allure of putting power to however many thousands of pounds of thrust you have at your fingertips...for the first 5,000 feet before you put on the autopilot as you climb up to FL350 (even though you're doing the last 10,000 feet of that at 500 FPM). Possibly the pay? That's laughable at best.

But I can see it now! I'm too old school (even though I'm only 24!), or I'm too bitter (home every night and weekends off? I don't think I'm really that bitter), or I'm too something that isn't with the times. The guys that have been doing this for years will say, "No ####" and the kids will accuse me of something that isn't hip.

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Alright, enough. This is getting ridiculous. Seggy does have a point with his posts on this subject, although the point may have been lost in the midst of discussions about a multitude of other things.

The point is, there are problems right now with some of the airline new-hires coming from various training pipelines, and those problems may or may not be a result of exactly what these schools are marketing: Shortcuts.

Whether it is an FBO, university, or training academy, pilots are getting hired with low time and are having difficulty on the line. Notice I said some in the above paragraph. I have flown with some great low-time pilots in my short tenure as a regional Captain, so I'm not going to make a sweeping generalization. I, at one point, was one of these "super-low-time" new hires as well. So what is the problem? Is it the hiring requirements?

What Seggy is saying, and I agree, is that the mindset of "get there quickly, so I can get that seniority number!" carries over when that pilot actually gets hired. Instead of there being a goal of, "I want to learn to fly and develop myself into a well-rounded, professional pilot" the goal is, "I want to be an airline pilot." There is a major difference, because if your goal is the former, then you'll realize that getting hired at an airline is just another opportunity to learn and grow as a professional. The latter is just a goal of achieving a job, and when that job is achieved, then what is next?

That there is the problem. Too many student pilots want to achieve a goal of a job, then don't know where to turn from there. They sit on their hands, and just do the job, rather than continuously working to grow as a pilot. They followed a training route that would get them to their goal, and that is it. Many of these pilots also find out that this job is not as glamorous as they were led to believe, and they leave after just a few years of line flying. Those that do stay just do what they need to do to get by, until they fail a checkride or bust out of upgrade training because they were not prepared. Then, that is their wakeup call.

Now, do all pilots who attend these "fast-track" schools have the mindset discussed above? Absolutely not. We have many examples of pilots here on this very board who approached their training as an opportunity to learn and grow as a professional. Captain_Bob is a great example. Becoming an airline pilot may have been a side goal for these pilots, but the main goal is to develop into a well-rounded, skilled, professional pilot.

The marketing gurus at these schools are not going to sell their product by saying, "Come train here, we will work with you until you are ready for your career as a well-rounded professional pilot." That sounds like hard work! So instead, they sell dreams... "Come train here, zero time to airline pilot in 12 months!"

I think the only thing we can do is get into the hearts and minds of these young (in terms of time and experience) pilots and reverse the trend. Lead them down a path that develops them into professional pilots, not airline pilots. Like I said, there is a big difference.
 
jtrain609 said:
Then you should take this up with SteveC, and if Steve has got a problem then he can moderate me (which he's done more than you might think), and if there's a further problem then Doug and/or Kristie will get involved.
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There is no problem, since I'm not the one dropping names, calling people people the eff letter word with ing, followed by 'kids.' That was all you, sir.

Clean up your act, and when it seems that you can handle a conversation professionally without dropping eff words and kid-name-calling, then we'll have a decent discussion.
 
meyers9163 said:
Man both of ya guys come on now..... I know you both are very intelligent when it comes to aviation and the state of the industry.
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I know almost nothing of the industry, except my experience. I'm not attacking him personally, just his ideas in this thread. I am sure he has done a great deal for the industry and work for ALPA. I have much respect for anyone who flies the line, so I apologize if it seemed disrespectful.

jtrain609 said:
Ryan needs to have a come to Jesus talk with you, kid, 'cause somebody has obviously missed the mark in educating you about this industry.

Mark here has done more for this profession before he hit 1,500 hours than you probably ever will, and I don't personally take kindly to you attacking the guy for trying to raise some points that need to be discussed about this industry.
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When did I attack him personally? When? I am attacking what has been stated in this thread. I admit that I don't know *ANYTHING* about him personally, except that he obviously has some ties with ALPA, he works at Colgan, and got hired low time.

Seggy, again, I have much respect for ANYONE that flies the line, so I apologize if I took it too far. I think I am done with this thread.

Edit: Jtrain, unless you are in your 50's, I think it is pretty derogatory of you to keep calling me kid, when you don't even know how old I am. Please stop the insults, that is pretty childish, in and of itself.
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
I haven't even posted and this is already 7 pages long! For everyone's sake, I'll stay out of this one.

It's the only way jtrain won't resort to name calling (the eff word, but add 'ing' to that first word, followed by 'kids').

And then after this namecalling from jtrain, we'll have SteveC (a moderator) do nothing about it... until Don steps up for me and after numerous PMs about being tough on moderating forums, Don finally convinces SteveC to modify jtrain's vulgarity.

jtrain and SteveC, you guys know exactly what thread and specific instance I refer to.

Since I don't want to go through that again, I'll refrain from posting about this particular topic of low time pilots.
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Cherokee_Cruiser said:
Mods aren't out to get me.

It's your name calling went too far. Can't you respond professionally, *even if* another pilot's opinion differs from yours?

And SteveC needs to tighten up on his moderating. I'm glad Don fought for me via PMs to SteveC about toughening it up as a moderator. Kinda sad that Don is no longer a moderator here, and now we have SteveC who just doesn't want to moderate name calling. I truly wonder why that is...
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jtrain609 said:
Then you should take this up with SteveC, and if Steve has got a problem then he can moderate me (which he's done more than you might think), and if there's a further problem then Doug and/or Kristie will get involved.
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Well, it's obvious that at least you've heard one side of the story. Interesting that you'd take me to task for this when you haven't bothered to ask me about the other half of what transpired.

Got to go fly. Later
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
There is no problem, since I'm not the one dropping names, calling people people the eff letter word with ing, followed by 'kids.' That was all you, sir.

Clean up your act, and when it seems that you can handle a conversation professionally without dropping eff words and kid-name-calling, then we'll have a decent discussion.
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Dude, how old are you?

I'm done with this thread...
 
mhcasey said:
Dude, how old are you?

I'm done with this thread...
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Old enough to not be using 'dude.'

You clearly aren't aware of the situation at hand in that other thread. Though opinions differ, I don't think I ever resorted to name calling. jtrain, on the other hand, finds it easy to drop eff words.


Well, it's obvious that at least you've heard one side of the story. Interesting that you'd take me to task for this when you haven't bothered to ask me about the other half of what transpired.
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What side of the story do you have, that PREVENTED you from moderating jtrain's "eff [ends with]-ing kids" comment?

Did you really need Don to tell you? As a moderator, I think it's only common sense to remove something like that.

There's no reason for anyone to drop the eff bomb while calling someone a kid.

If jtrain wants to call me a kid, that's fine by itself. But the eff wording is pushing it.
 
mojo6911 said:
I know almost nothing of the industry, except my experience. I'm not attacking him personally, just his ideas in this thread. I am sure he has done a great deal for the industry and work for ALPA. I have much respect for anyone who flies the line, so I apologize if it seemed disrespectful.



When did I attack him personally? When? I am attacking what has been stated in this thread. I admit that I don't know *ANYTHING* about him personally, except that he obviously has some ties with ALPA, he works at Colgan, and got hired low time.

Seggy, again, I have much respect for ANYONE that flies the line, so I apologize if I took it too far. I think I am done with this thread.

Edit: Jtrain, unless you are in your 50's, I think it is pretty derogatory of you to keep calling me kid, when you don't even know how old I am. Please stop the insults, that is pretty childish, in and of itself.
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Ah its cool dude! I see how you meant it now! No problem!
 
Hey Cherokee.

Before you blast SteveC, you should note that the post in question DID get moderated. Had it not, I'd believe you'd have a case here. You'd fare better in this argument if you had simply reported the thread yourself. Believe me, you had a great case for reporting it as that sort of language/respect level is something the mods/admins here don't like to see. But, they can't be everyplace at once.

So, the forums need to be self moderated by using the post report feature. If you don't do it, you can hardly complain when a mod doesn't respond in a timely manner.
 
DE727UPS said:
Hey Cherokee.

Before you blast SteveC, you should note that the post in question DID get moderated. Had it not, I'd believe you'd have a case here. You'd fare better in this argument if you had simply reported the thread yourself. Believe me, you had a great case for reporting it as that sort of language/respect level is something the mods/admins here don't like to see. But, they can't be everyplace at once.

So, the forums need to be self moderated by using the post report feature. If you don't do it, you can hardly complain when a mod doesn't respond in a timely manner.
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You're right, I did already see that it was moderated a while ago. That I did know.

All I'm saying this entire time, and what I'm hoping for, is that people can have a conversation without flipping out and resorting to name calling.

I guess low time pilots can be a "sensitive" subject, but not to the point that someone should resort to name-calling.

The same guy who speaks against low time pilots (which is fine to do), but then resorts to name-calling, says wonders about his professionalism and character.
 
Damn Seggy!! Look what you done went and did!! :insane:

I'll make this quick, because I need a nap.

First of all, Seggy is a great guy. I can't tell you how many questions I've asked him, how many times I've called him and how many times he gladly gave me the best answer he could. For that, he's a stand up guy. One thing I've noticed about him, is that he is passionate about this profession and he wants to make it better. So cut the guy a break, I think he just came off wrong here.

Now time to support my flight school. I trained at ATP. Why? I have a friend who is Captain at Continental on the 737. Lots of years in the industry and he is my go to guy (when I can get a hold of him) for advice. His advice to me when I got out of the military was - it doesn't matter where you get your flight training. Just make sure you have a good instructor and your vision isn't blurred about the industry. I asked him his opinion about ATP, he looked into it and said it looked like a great deal. So for a year and half, I was immersed in aviation. Went through the program and instructed. Did ATP make me better then anyone else? No. But I had a good instructor, I dedicated ALL of my time to studying, learning and preparing and I got through it quickly. Everyday for the entire 1yr 1/2 I was with ATP, I was wrapped around flying. My instructor was great, he left no stone unturned and read every book I was supposed to and some that I wanted to. I chose ATP because of multi engine flying, less distractions during training and at the time, the price great. I didn't have many options at home for local FBO's. I had 3 to choose from, flew at all 3, and didn't have good experiences.

That being said, I just made it through my second day of OE on the Beech. Let me say, without hesitation, that I was not prepared for how FAST things happen. I felt like I checked my brain at the door. I felt like a complete idiot flying the airplane for the first time yesterday. I didn't know where we were in the sky, I was bungling my call outs and checklists. It was ugly! :D But I have a great IOE Captain and by the my last leg yesterday, I actually had a great landing and I started to catch up a bit. Today was a bit better, except for my first landing! Yikes! My last landing was good and today I felt a bit more comfortable, but still overwhelmed. I still need to do better on callouts and more importantly, get my situation awareness up. The cockpit feels huge. :)

So whats the moral? Well, a few months ago, I could fly a seminole with one hand behind my back, shoot approaches to mins knowing where I was, where I was going at all times and I stayed 3 steps ahead of the airplane and 4 steps ahead of my students. Yet, I jump into a 121 job with a faster more complex airplane - and I feel like I forgot how to fly. I can't say whether another 300-400hrs of instructing would have made this transition easier. I really don't know, and honestly I don't care. I'm here, I'm excited as heck to be here and I'm just doing my best to get up to speed and adjust.

My advice to every pilot coming up in the industry is - choose your school wisely. Don't focus on the flashy ads and guarantee's. There is nothing wrong with immersion programs, like ATP. Just be prepared and have some discipline to learn as much as you can. If you have the flight times to apply at Regionals, ONLY do so if you *think* you are ready. And believe me, its a LOT different then you think it is. If you get hired, you'll go through a lot of hoops, so be ready. Yesterday my OE Captain said "When I feel you are an asset in the cockpit, I'll sign you off. " I'm just trying to become an asset, and really that is the end goal.
 
And airdale is saying this going into a "slow" 121 airplane. Now just imagine yourself at the reins of a 53000 lb, M.78 jet.....
 
Well, this thread has wandered about all over the place now hasn't it?

I had an interesting conversation with Mark last night on AIM. It made me realize something.

He's an aviator. I'm a pilot. Two entirely different things.

For a pilot, there is no problem taking the shortest route as long as it provides adequate training and prepares a pilot for the job they are shooting for. For me, ATP did just that. It gave the the opportunity to get my ratings done and then to instruct. It was the instruction that made the difference. If I hadn't instructing some 800 hours I wouldn't be anywhere near the pilot I am today.

Now, if I had been an aviator, going to ATP, busting out my ratings and instructing until I got a job offer to fly passengers around wouldn't have been right. I would have felt like I never got the chance to craft my skills and experience all different kinds of flying. If I was an aviator I would have taken aerobatic classes and gotten my sea plane rating. I would have flown from the Atlantic to the Pacific never more then 2000 AGL... Just to experience it. I would have wanted to be able to fly around in a restored B17 and would have drooled looking at War Birds. I would have tried to go to Sun 'n Fun or Oshkosh every year.

But you know what? I had no desire to do any of that (well, except the float plane rating). I wanted to get my time in, learn to be a competent and safe pilot and then get a secure and well paying job flying people around. Does that make me less of a pilot? I don't think so, but it certainly doesn't make me an aviator.

Everybody should ask themselves this question. I think we will find that the people that went to ATP and the pilot mills don't care so much about being aviators, but rather want to be professional pilots. To them (well, to me anyways) it's a business. I needed to get the skills to get hired into the business and I did just that.

I care very much about being the very best pilot I can be. I constantly am trying to learn new things and improve my skills. But I don't care so much about being an aviator.
 
I'm with you Bob. Growing up all I wanted to do was be a fighter pilot, because that's what my Dad did. I knew every single military plane, I read anything I could about the military. Skip ahead a few years to when I'm graduating from college. Now I realize most of my ideas fall pretty far to the left. That and I'm mostly a pacifist. I knew this wasn't a good combination but I still stupidly went into the marines on a flight contract. To my credit I lasted a whole six weeks before I "Dropped on request." My parents were upset but they got over it.

At that point I had a pretty big personality crisis. What I wanted to do my whole life wasn't going to work. I really didn't know what to do. I went back to being a gofer at a construction site for a few weeks (with a 4 year degree mind you). I finally realized that even though being a fighter pilot wouldn't work out, I'd still love to be an airline pilot. I looked at my Dad and saw his 3 day schedule and 200,000 paycheck. Also, besides PC's he really likes his job.

Now at this point I was 24 and really didn't have time to wait. So I went to Ari-Ben. Aviator had it's problems but it got me from my private pilot's license to the right seat of a Saab in under 2 years for about 40 grand.

Now, I'm not making 200,000 a year (only 20,000) but I'm not working nearly as much as most people for it. The other day I was at a party with my fiance and a bunch of PHD's. They were all talking about how they hate having to bring work home on the weekends. I tried not to gloat about having a standard 3 day weekend.

I've gotten over being an "Aviator." I don't really get a huge thrill flying the Saab. Though I like being able to sit back and monitor systems during cruise. Landings, and the fast pace of departures are pretty fun too. I know it's nothing like my Dad flying F-14s or F-4s or A-4s though and I don't try to pretend it is. I do like that my day ended at 10:30 am today though, and my long day ends at around 2:30 tomorrow. So it's what you make of it. I don't know if I'll ever make the 300,000 my Dad is making this year. I figure as long as I break into the six's I'll be happy. I love the schedule and travel benefits though and I enjoy how safe and regulated airline travel is.

Whoa, sorry about the long post.
 
I guess I'm somewhere in between the professional pilot and the aviator. I am looking forward the moving up to a more complex aircraft in a few days now, but I just read about jrh purchasing and flying his C-140. I hate that I didn't go ahead and finish up that tail wheel endorsement.:banghead: I was getting it for free in a citabria and I hate I didn't get my sea plane rating. I also would also like to go to the Republic Maldives and fly twin otters on floats for a few years before I go to the majors.:)
 
You know guys, I could really care less about the whole "destroyin the industry" thing. But if you could see what I see, from my vantage point, at my job, from the perspective of pilot education and training, then you'd have the crap scared out of you for this profession.
 
jtrain609 said:
You've never backed up a friend before?
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Not when it's only words. Gettin your A kicked in the back ally is a different story.

Two people sharing words, heated or not, need to work it out on their own.

Just an observation from someone who at one point had you jump into the middle of their discussion.
 
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