The mentality of a "Fast-Track" program and low time commercial airline pilots...

[Seggy]

I have been critical of 'Fast-Track' programs such as ATP and others that have letters with regionals to guarantee hiring, plans to fast-track your career, etc...

In my mind they are bad for the industry, VERY bad. Let me expand on my thoughts here. Bear with me...

First and foremost I am going to say it like it is. ATP is a good program, scratch that, they are a great program. They have a great safety record, get the job done, although expensive, and produce pilots. I even went to ATP to do the ATP written exam program, best $295.00 I ever spent.

You aren't a professional pilot...you become a professional pilot. In the past, those that went the civilian way, learned to become a professional through building hours from CFIing, pipeline patrol, banner towing, ag flying, etc. You built those hours till you had about 2000 hours of total time, then you moved to a Beech 99 or Metro, then on to your first jet. ATP and Ari-Ben take away from that tutelage. USAirways has a lot of guys who are from a commuter background. Jump seating on them a lot you hear the stories that they have to tell. Those stories is what taught them to be pilots. The other pilots at majors that trained from the civil ranks have those same similar stories to tell. You simply do not have the experience at 300 to 500 hours to be flying around in a Jet or Turboprop 121 (if you train the civilian way). I was one of those guys! Looking back, I didn't have that experience at that time to fly the Beech 1900!

This is the another REAL problem I have with ATP and these other 'fast-track' programs. In this race to get there the quickest, where does it stop? ATP and other fast track programs love advertising how they get you hired. Well that is nice, but once again where does it stop? There are MAJOR labor issues at the legacy airlines. Airline Management sees those that are willing to pay a place like ATP to fly an asset. How do they see them as an asset? Airline management sees the mentality of those willing to get their the quickest as potential candidates to cross a picket line. Back in the Eastern Airlines days, when the Eastern pilots were to go on strike, management basically sent letters to every commercial rated pilot in Florida a letter of conditional employment. It is my understanding you had guys who were doing outside jobs accepted these letter because they wanted to 'fly an L1011'. They did not work their way up to their job. They were offered that job at the price of trained professionals. The mentality that ATP and other fast-track programs foster is a tool for management NOT pilots.

The mentality of get there the quickest NEEDS to stop. If it doesn't management will tell the guys at the legacies to go on strike, they will bring in fresh meat who are just 'happy to be there' and 'get there the quickest'.

In my mind it is the greatest time EVER to be a pilot. There truly is a shortage. It is up to us make sure that we use this shortage as an advantage to us as professional pilots. Those on Jetcareers I am not worried about. We are all on here to be educated. However, for everyone on Jetcareers there are 10 that are not. We need to do what we can to make sure all out there are educated on these issues. Like I said if you have the opportunity to fly an airline at low time do it. Just don't forget what it could lead to if we are not careful.

 

[Captain_Bob]

Second verse... same as the first...

Seggy,

If I was training in the environment of 30+ years ago... then I'd no doubt have taken the long route you describe. Not by choice mind you... but because it was the only route (besides military).

Times change... People used to cook on an open fire... they used to have to go cut down trees, gather firewood, build a fire pit, hunt for the food, gut it, prepare it, season it, finally cook it. Then cast iron woodstoves came along that revolutionized how we prepared our meals... Gas and Electric stoves came next... now we have the ease of convection ovens that do the same job more efficiently and in considerably less time, and the food tastes just as good... ain't progress grand?

Today's flying is not yesterday's flying. The basic aerodynamic factors haven't changed... just the process and the systems on the aircraft as well as advances in airline training groundschools. I completely agree that folks are not "aviators" these days... but... not everyone want's to be an "aviator" as they head into the 121 field. Folks these days are seeing it as simply a different type of job that offers a different lifestyle. For better or worse... the planes are easier to fly, the airspace is easier to understand, and the FAA has spent years clarifying the rules to the point where now we can almost fully understand them.

In fact... I believe that "aviators" are the most frustrated folks in the 121 arena. It is too restrictive an environment for what I would call a true "aviator". So... I see your point... but... as you said... it's a different environment these days.

By your definition... I am not a true "aviator". I'm OK with that. I'm not here to be the Chuck Yeager of ExpressJet. I'm here to do my job and do it well while fully expecting not to be taken advantage of my my management... and I will work hard toward that end. I also take the time to take my kids up in the 172 on the side for a bit of family fun. So... I'm not an aviator... just a decent "pilot guy" who takes his life, his work, his passion to fly, and his family very seriously.

You also have a small contradiction in your statement... on one hand... you say that now is the greatest time EVER to be a pilot, however... you'd prefer that folks to take the long route to get there. Again... not bad... but that doesn't help with the shortage... and window's of opportunity do close in this industry... as we have seen over, and over, and over again.

Bob

 

[Chris_Ford]

You aren't a professional pilot...you become a professional pilot. In the past, those that went the civilian way, learned the tutelage of becoming a professional through building hours from CFIing, pipeline patrol, banner towing, ag flying, etc. You built those hours till you had about 2000 hours of total time, then you moved to a Beech 99 or Metro, then on to your first jet. ATP and Ari-Ben take away from that tutelage. USAirways has a lot of guys who are from a commuter background. Jump seating on them a lot you hear the stories that they have to tell. Those stories is what taught them to be pilots. The other pilots at majors that trained from the civil ranks have those same similar stories to tell. You simply do not have the experience at 300 to 500 hours to be flying around in a Jet or Turboprop 121 (if you train the civilian way). I don't care what anyone says you don't have that experience. I was one of those guys. Looking back, I didn't have that experience at that time to fly the Beech 1900!

While I don't disagree with the sentiments, civilian trained pilots in the 60s were hired with a private pilot license and that's it. And these are not outliers. So if you wish to cite how it "used" to be, it should be qualified with "in the last 30 years"

This is the another REAL problem I have with ATP and these other 'fast-track' programs. In this race to get there the quickest, where does it stop? ATP and other fast track programs love advertising how they get you hired. Well that is nice, but once again where does it stop? There are MAJOR labor issues at the legacy airlines. Airline Management sees those that are willing to pay a place like ATP to fly an asset. How do they see them as an asset? Airline management sees the mentality of those willing to get their the quickest as potential candidates to cross a picket line. Back in the Eastern Airlines days, when the Eastern pilots were to go on strike, management basically sent letters to every commercial rated pilot in Florida a letter of conditional employment. It is my understanding you had guys who were doing outside jobs accept these letter because they wanted to fly an L1011. They did not work their way up to their job. They were offered that job at the price of trained professionals. The mentality that ATP and other fast-track programs foster is a tool for management NOT pilots.

That was an incredibly slippery slope there.

 

[Seggy]

That was an incredibly slippery slope there.

How so? It could happen. Not saying it will, but it could.

We have to be careful. I wish every airline had a management team like Southwest or ExpressJet, then we really wouldn't need to worry about all of this.

 

[Chris_Ford]

How so? It could happen. Not saying it will, but it could.

We have to be careful. I wish every airline had a management team like Southwest or ExpressJet, then we really wouldn't need to worry about all of this.

That's exactly what a slippery slope is.

For example:
Let's say I stub my toe in the morning.

I get all pissed off about it. Then someone really annoys me (while I'm pissed) and I strangle them to death. A stubbed toe has just caused a murder. See how that's a slippery slope? It's similar to what you're saying.

 

[Seggy]

That's exactly what a slippery slope is.

For example:
Let's say I stub my toe in the morning.

I get all pissed off about it. Then someone really annoys me (while I'm pissed) and I strangle them to death. A stubbed toe has just caused a murder. See how that's a slippery slope? It's similar to what you're saying.

First about the guys getting hired in the 60s with a private. Yeah some guys were, but then they had to sit panel on a 727 for a long time. That is where they learned, with two other experienced guys up front teaching them. Not many were hired but some were.

About the slippery slope there. I say it like I see it. Not saying I am 100% right, just the way I see it. If we can prevent it from happening, why shouldn't we try to spread the word and get it out there. Let us prevent it from happening that way.

The bottom line here Chris is that the mentality of getting there the quickest has to stop. Who knows what else could happen if this mentality is not adjusted.

Patience is a virtue. We all need it in this industry.

 

[Chris_Ford]

First about the guys getting hired in the 60s with a private. Yeah some guys were, but then they had to sit panel on a 727 for a long time. That is where they learned, with two other experienced guys up front teaching them. Not many were hired but some were.

About the slippery slope there. I say it like I see it. Not saying I am 100% right, just the way I see it. If we can prevent it from happening, why shouldn't we try to spread the word and get it out there. Let us prevent it from happening that way.

Why don't we try to prevent murders by telling people not to stub their toes? For the same reason, you're looking at an incorrect impetus.

The "Flying the panel" should be seen as more of a hindrance too because it leads you to less time actually manipulating controls of an airplane. Ex. you FE for 10 years (as some did) and then you upgrade to FO... It's been 10 years since you've flown.

 

[Kristie]

Why don't we try to prevent murders by telling people not to stub their toes? For the same reason, you're looking at an incorrect impetus.

does it really matter? the point is to get people informed...

 

[Chris_Ford]

does it really matter? the point is to get people informed...

I'm not sure how calling out fast track programs unnecessarily "informs" anyone... but if you know, please inform me.

 

[Seggy]

Why don't we try to prevent murders by telling people not to stub their toes? For the same reason, you're looking at an incorrect impetus.

The "Flying the panel" should be seen as more of a hindrance too because it leads you to less time actually manipulating controls of an airplane. Ex. you FE for 10 years (as some did) and then you upgrade to FO... It's been 10 years since you've flown.

I went back and edited a few things about the stubbing the toe analogy.


I disagree with you and your flying the panel statement. You learned how to act as a crew, handle in-flight emergencies, deal with situations when you were at the panel. A DC-10 FE for NW once told me, the panel is the most important spot and at times the hardest. You see the mistakes the others might have overlooked. This guy was retired 60+ and had over 25,000 hours. Doug can chime in on his panel time what that was like. I could be wrong here.

Going back to actually flying takes a few weeks in the sim to catch up.

 

[BobDDuck]

Something to consider too...

Those private pilot wonders that Eastern and United hired back then didn't go directly to the panel. Eastern (and I'm guessing United) had a whole fleet of training aircraft from light twins up to Saberliners (I think). Private Pilot Joe would spend a year tooling around in those airplanes learning the 121 way before they ever saw got to sit sideways on something with passengers.

Seggy, I know what you are saying, but it just doesn't apply anymore. The world changed. People want (and get) things now. Back then it was more about the journey then the destination.

 

[meyers9163]

Seggy what was your TT/ME when you got hired at Colgan?

 

[Dugie8]

First about the guys getting hired in the 60s with a private. Yeah some guys were, but then they had to sit panel on a 727 for a long time. That is where they learned, with two other experienced guys up front teaching them. Not many were hired but some were.

About the slippery slope there. I say it like I see it. Not saying I am 100% right, just the way I see it. If we can prevent it from happening, why shouldn't we try to spread the word and get it out there. Let us prevent it from happening that way.

The bottom line here Chris is that the mentality of getting there the quickest has to stop. Who knows what else could happen if this mentality is not adjusted.

Patience is a virtue. We all need it in this industry.

Ok, lets put this little myth to bed. Sitting on the panel does not equate to experience or ability in the bag. Plenty of PFEs at ATI that had been on the panle of not only the DC8, but C-141s, C-130s, etc that could not handle going from the panel to the right seat of the 8 with nothing more than 250 hours of C-150 time.

Things change, people and situations evolve, life goes on. To sit and pontificate about how it should be, while you yourself benefited from being hired with less than "stellar" time, is hypocritical at best. Learning to fly is not some romance novel of an adventure, it is a goal. ATP allows those that want to spend the money, accomplish that goal at a very quick pace. A pace that one could hardly do at a local FBO or at someplace like ERAU, Purdue, UND, etc.

Labor problems are not the fault of UND or ATP or any flight school program. They are the fault of greedy corporate and equally greedy "senior" pilots who voted in and pushed contracts with substandard language that allowed bad QOL for junior pilots and even worse pay for those same junior pilots. Flying at a regional or 135 freight or flight instructing is NOT paying dues. This is NOT a fraternity and bluto doesn't yell TOGA at the weekly meeting.

We need to start looking a lot deeper to the root of this problem in this industry and start fixing the real problems, instead of laying them at the feet of those that haven't even made it here yet.

 

[flyover]

Very well said Captain Bob.

 

[Seggy]

Bob,

I see your points and you make good ones. The thing I have a problem with is the get there the quickest mentality I am seeing come from these schools and programs. At what cost do we draw the line? I was ready to spend a year or two flight instructing. An opportunity came along and I took it. Why don't we change our attitudes and say it is about the journey not the destination? Many people are reaching the destination and realizing it is not what they want. Look what happened to a member in another thread. He got to an airline and quit five months later. There are many others out there like that. Maybe, if we aren't so gung-ho on reaching the destination and enjoy the journey more, it will make us appreciate it more once we get there.

No contradiction in my statement. I encourage EVERYONE to take advantage of the window. I did and did well with my opportunity. It is one of the best times ever to be a pilot. But, why not look back and see how we can make the whole process better along the way.

If flight schools paid the instructors more and treated the CFIs better, then they wouldn't be chopping at the bit to get to a regional. If regionals paid more, they could require more time for the pilots to be brought on forcing guys to build time for longer times. If the regionals paid more, then the majors need to as well. See how things roll uphill?

The bar has been lowered to much in the past few years.

Dugie, how can you say I am hypocritical? I clearly said...

"You simply do not have the experience at 300 to 500 hours to be flying around in a Jet or Turboprop 121 (if you train the civilian way). I was one of those guys! Looking back, I didn't have that experience at that time to fly the Beech 1900!"

I thought I did at that time. It was over 20 months ago. In those 20 months I learned a lot. Still have a lot of learning to do, but one thing I did learn is 500 hours is not enough time to be in a 121 cockpit. If you have the opportunity go for it. They will be out there. Just keep an open mind down the road. That is all I am saying.

 

[meyers9163]

Seggy I see your point. I do believe if FBo's did indeed pay the CFI's more there'd be a great chance for them sticking it out. Perhaps even a salary would be best because many that dont fly leave because of a lack of hours and ability to pay bills. Secondly if more had a chance for CFI's to ride along in Kingair jobs or C430s and had perhaps a 135operation with 2 pilots that one would be able to log SIC would keep CFI's around.

But the fact of the matter is these jobs for CFI's are few and far between. In addition that means many want to leave and get to their goal ASAP. I do see problems however with pilots at 200 hours and or anything less then 600 being taken on by carriers. There is no one out there that should be able to say a guy with 300TT deserves a job. Hell they barely can do anything other then a 121 gig with so few hours. Many FBO's want CFI's with more time then that.

The real question is how long until 20/20 does a show on the hiring of airlines? Perhaps with Media coverage of this the 121 carriers would be forces to pay more because you could easily scare the american public by showing what the experience of their pilots have.

 

[Seggy]

Meyer, glad you see the point I am trying to make. There really are no easy answers to the questions you raise.

The thing is there are going to be those that sit on the sideline or those that will go out there and try to change the policy. We all can do either. It is up to the individual what they want to do. If you see a problem instead of justifying it, fix it.

 

[meyers9163]

It'd be great to fix it however there's always that NTAS (ask me if you want to know what it stands for) that will accept the job. Therefore its going to be a continual sprial downhill until it does recieve more media coverage. I really think the media lacks the knowledge of this or they'd have a hay down over it. Lets face it they want something to talk about and this would make them talk in addition it'd make them ask questions about the safety and if nothing more scare the american public about those who are flying them around?

 

[meritflyer]

Seggy,

This is going to be a full-time job for you outside of flying me thinks.

 

[Fly4Pay]

The bar has been lowered to much in the past few years.

Dugie, how can you say I am hypocritical? I clearly said...

"You simply do not have the experience at 300 to 500 hours to be flying around in a Jet or Turboprop 121 (if you train the civilian way). I was one of those guys! Looking back, I didn't have that experience at that time to fly the Beech 1900!"

I thought I did at that time. It was over 20 months ago. In those 20 months I learned a lot. Still have a lot of learning to do, but one thing I did learn is 500 hours is not enough time to be in a 121 cockpit. If you have the opportunity go for it. They will be out there. Just keep an open mind down the road. That is all I am saying.

Seg,
Just to play devil's advocate here (and cause I don't mind stirrin' the puddin'! ), let me take a different tack. You say you didn't have the experience to fly that jet. Apparently, you did! You didn't hurt yourself, your passengers, or your aircraft (as far as I know). You must not have been a drain on the company, because I don't think you go fired. Were you the best possible person to sit in that seat? Maybe not, but that's not what's at issue. The question is, how qualified is qualified enough?

Someone with 300 hours isn't qualified? How about 500? 1000? Are my 4100 hours "qualified enough?" To someone with 10,000, maybe they don't think so. It comes down to this: what does the employer (who is the one who pays the person to fly) think is enough?

I got into a similar discussion in reverse once regarding salaries for baseball players. A guy tried to tell me that pro baseball players get paid too much. I asked why. He said that there's no reason to pay someone that much when there are other folks out there who are willing to play ball for much less. But, I answered him, those aren't the guys the fans are willing to pay to see. So the team owner is willing to cough up the big bucks to cover A-Rod's salary. Or Derek Jeter. Or whoever. Those people add to the bottom line of a company, because they get more butts in the seats.

Now let's look at the airlines. Do better pilots get more people in the seats? I would say no. No one flies a particular airline because they get smoother landings, or more precise ILSs, or better aeronautical knowledge. They pay to get from point A to point B as economically possible. We, as "professional aviators, don't add to the bottom line. Until some of these low-timers prove themselves to be less safe, it's going to be tough to convince airlines to pay more. And therefore, the airlines are going to get the cheapest labor they can find that they feel is qualified to do the job. You can't get much cheaper than someone who is willing to pay to get trained (ok, except maybe for someone who is willing to pay the employer AFTER training).

Again, I'd LOVE to get paid more, but from a business standpoint, it doesn't make sense to hire higher-time guys at a high wage if lower-time guys are willing to do it cheaper.