Logging time in a PC-12

T

timeoff

New Member
I will be flying with a buddy of mine in a Pilatus next week. It is a 135 operation but I will be flying a 3 hour empty repo leg. I have 260tt, my hp and complex endorsements and zero time in a PC-12. How should I, as an aspiring corp pilot, log this time knowing I will be flying this plane more in the future?

ps This could quite possibly lead to a job with them doing some sightseeing stuff (<25nm) and some VFR 135 stuff when I hit 500tt.

Thanks in advance.
 
Less than 12,500 lbs, you've got the endorsements, and it's a Part 91 leg. I honestly don't see anything wrong with logging it PIC as sole manipulator. If it leads to a future job with the same company, odds are they'll know about what you've been doing anyway and probably won't even question it (unless you weren't supposed to be flying the plane :) ). If it's at another company, just explain the situation if they ask.
 
Is your buddy a CFI? Though you could legally log it, it might look better in the book if you got "instruction" in the PC-12 instead of just logging it as only PIC on your first flight ever. JMOH
 
Don't forget a high altitude endorsement. The PC-12 can get above FL250, right?

EDIT: Also be careful to make SURE that the empty leg is being operated as a part 91 flight! Just because it's an empty leg does not mean it has to be flown 91. If it's dispatched as a 135 flight, even if empty, you need a 135 PIC or SIC PC to log that flight time or even manipulate the controls. Heck, even sitting up in the right seat on a 135 leg is questionable, even if you're not touching the controls. The chances of you guys getting ramped is small, but if my company found me hauling around a buddy to log some time on my part 91 legs when I'm empty I'd get fired yesterday.
 
I would go with the instruction thing, that will look the best because ANYBODY you go fly for will know that a PC-12 is a very complex and expensive airplane that no one is just going to let you fly.

Just make sure that the company your friend works for knows you are with him. Most companies are required to list "riders" and as long as that is done your okay.
 
jtrain609 said:
Don't forget a high altitude endorsement. The PC-12 can get above FL250, right?

EDIT: Also be careful to make SURE that the empty leg is being operated as a part 91 flight! Just because it's an empty leg does not mean it has to be flown 91. If it's dispatched as a 135 flight, even if empty, you need a 135 PIC or SIC PC to log that flight time or even manipulate the controls. Heck, even sitting up in the right seat on a 135 leg is questionable, even if you're not touching the controls. The chances of you guys getting ramped is small, but if my company found me hauling around a buddy to log some time on my part 91 legs when I'm empty I'd get fired yesterday.
Click to expand...

The high altitude is for ACTING as PIC - he won't be acting as PIC.

The empty leg will be a Part 91 flight - your company may choose to dispatch the flight using all the procedures it routinely uses for Part 135, but if it's not carrying passengers or cargo for hire it is a Part 91 flight, it cannot, by definition be a Part 135 flight.

People who operate planes like Pilatus's "often" put paying passengers in the right seat - it is, after all, another passenger seat under the ops. specs. and the planes certification. So the status of the person sitting there is not an issue, although as you correctly point out, under Part 135 no touching the controls (which can just mean the yoke and rudder or can mean everything within reach depending on your POI).

What your company may or may not allow in their official or unofficial documentation is a completly different question - but don't confuse it with a regulatory issue.
 
jtrain609 said:
Don't forget a high altitude endorsement. The PC-12 can get above FL250, right?
Click to expand...

After review, it's service ceiling is FL300. Soooo it looks like I am not quite legal to log time in it just yet.

For those of you who got your high alt endorsements outside of the airlines, what is involved? Can this be done by any instructor who simply has their high alt endorsement also? Is there any type of sim required for covering pressurization and oxygen systems?

Any help would be appreciated. Anyone know where a guy can get this endorsement in FL in the next few days?
 
timeoff said:
After review, it's service ceiling is FL300. Soooo it looks like I am not quite legal to log time in it just yet.
Click to expand...

You don't have a problem - you only want to know how to LOG this time, and you do not need a high altitude endorsement to LOG the time.

If they were expecting you to ACT as PIC during the flight then you'd need the endorsement, but you'd probably need a whole bunch of other stuff as well to satisfy the insurance company and I'm sure you could pick up the high alt. along the way.

Interestingly, unless the other pilot is a CFI giving instruction, they will be ACTING as PIC but cannot log the time (at least as PIC).
 
His CFI is expired.

I understand what you mean by not acting as PIC. I just want to make sure that I am "technically" trained on what is in my logbook. Plus, knowing about pressurization, high alt weather, hypoxia, etc., will only help me in understanding what I will be doing.
 
If his CFI is expired and you don't have a high alt. endorsement I'm don't believe there is a way you can legally log it. (all insurance things aside.) Either way, go fly with him and the experience certainly won't hurt.
 
Lee D said:
If his CFI is expired and you don't have a high alt. endorsement I'm don't believe there is a way you can legally log it. (all insurance things aside.) Either way, go fly with him and the experience certainly won't hurt.
Click to expand...

Why, Why, Why?

There is a difference between ACTING and LOGGING PIC - you do not have to meet the requirements to ACT as PIC to be able to LOG it.
 
timeoff said:
His CFI is expired.

I understand what you mean by not acting as PIC. I just want to make sure that I am "technically" trained on what is in my logbook. Plus, knowing about pressurization, high alt weather, hypoxia, etc., will only help me in understanding what I will be doing.
Click to expand...

Well that's your decision. You CAN log it as PIC, but you don't have to, you don't have to log it at all.
 
Wrong, you can dispatch a 100%, completely empty flight on as a 135 leg and be completely legal doing it. 135 companies do it all the time, be it cargo or passenger ops. The company has the OPTION to let the flight go as a part 91 leg IF THEY DECIDE TO, but it is also their option to dispatch the flight as a 135 leg, empty or not.

CFIse said:
The high altitude is for ACTING as PIC - he won't be acting as PIC.

The empty leg will be a Part 91 flight - your company may choose to dispatch the flight using all the procedures it routinely uses for Part 135, but if it's not carrying passengers or cargo for hire it is a Part 91 flight, it cannot, by definition be a Part 135 flight.

People who operate planes like Pilatus's "often" put paying passengers in the right seat - it is, after all, another passenger seat under the ops. specs. and the planes certification. So the status of the person sitting there is not an issue, although as you correctly point out, under Part 135 no touching the controls (which can just mean the yoke and rudder or can mean everything within reach depending on your POI).

What your company may or may not allow in their official or unofficial documentation is a completly different question - but don't confuse it with a regulatory issue.
Click to expand...
 
jtrain609 said:
Wrong, you can dispatch a 100%, completely empty flight on as a 135 leg and be completely legal doing it. 135 companies do it all the time, be it cargo or passenger ops. The company has the OPTION to let the flight go as a part 91 leg IF THEY DECIDE TO, but it is also their option to dispatch the flight as a 135 leg, empty or not.
Click to expand...

I'm sorry - you are wrong. Here's a suggestion - next time you're on an "empty" Part 135 leg taxi into a parked airliner and see how the FAA/NTSB codes it.

You cannot "dispatch" an aircraft that is not carrying revenue passengers or cargo as a Part 135 flight. You can follow all the procedures that you normally follow when dispatching a Part 135 flight - but the flight is Part 91.

Show me an Ops Spec or a regulation that says a aircraft not carrying revenue passengers or cargo is Part 135. It doesn't exist - therefore the flight must be Part 91.
 
You've got it backwards, hoss. You dispatch 135 (or 121), and then you have the option of going 91 if you're empty. There is also a question of whether you're on demand or scheduled, which would probably make an impact on this discussion.

I thought you flew for Mesa eh?

CFIse said:
I'm sorry - you are wrong. Here's a suggestion - next time you're on an "empty" Part 135 leg taxi into a parked airliner and see how the FAA/NTSB codes it.

You cannot "dispatch" an aircraft that is not carrying revenue passengers or cargo as a Part 135 flight. You can follow all the procedures that you normally follow when dispatching a Part 135 flight - but the flight is Part 91.

Show me an Ops Spec or a regulation that says a aircraft not carrying revenue passengers or cargo is Part 135. It doesn't exist - therefore the flight must be Part 91.
Click to expand...
 
CFIse said:
Why, Why, Why?

There is a difference between ACTING and LOGGING PIC - you do not have to meet the requirements to ACT as PIC to be able to LOG it.
Click to expand...

This has been argued to death. Whether or not you can is really irrelevant in this situation. If you show up for an interview with a couple of hours of Pilatus time without a high altitude endorsement, they're probably going to grill you on it if they catch it.
 
I dunno what you're talking about bro, this guy knows 121 regs, 135 regs, 91 regs, what interviewers will ask and how to get around pesky things like the real interp. of the rules.
 
All this trouble to log 3 hours in your logbook. If it's allowed I'd say go along for the ride, it'll be tons of fun and you'll learn a lot. I don't see the point in going to all the trouble and justification to log 3 hours on an aircraft that you're not even trained on. It will get you no where when looking for a job except for the fact that you can say you've ridden in a PC-12 which you'll be able to say anyways. 3 hours may seem like a lot with 250 hours but once you actually get going it is nothing.

Anyways go along for the ride, the PC-12 is an amazing aircraft and I'm sure you'll have tons of fun!
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top