Gotta love lawyers

Well, if it was due to a service issue, odds are the company that did the servicing is at fault. Although, if history of court cases in aviation holds true, everyone remotely connected to this airplane will get sued. Avidyne might even get sued b/c they made the instrumentation. Had nothing to do with the crash, but they've got $$$$.
 
The only points in my original post which you apparently missed are:

1. he wasn't there.
2. he has no idea what did or did not cause the accident.
3. he has no idea what the lawyers know or don't know either.
4. last but not least, if he was in need of a lawyer for whatever reason, he'll be singing a different tune.

I sleep like a baby at night, and I am currently (and have been) relaxed. Thus the civil tone of conversing we've been having.

Seems like pretty much everyone here is in agreement with your points listed above. If you detect some anger or frustration towards lawyers here, it's because they don't abide by the points you've listed - and they (the Plaintiff attorneys) matter a lot more than a few guys on JC. Nobody here said "let's kill all lawyers, who needs 'em!" either, so I'm not sure why you keep harping on that.
 
.......
........ I also see people's ignorance in their posts, judging lawyers, pilots' actions, juries, etc, when they know nothing about the case. These posts are no better than John Q Public making unfounded claims about an aircraft crash that he knows nothing about. (This is you.)

.......:

:yeahthat:


That's all I was getting at in a very round about way.
 
Lastly, if you acted the same as an accident investigator as you do here, you must not have been a very good investigator, as you really jump to conclusions. Regarding the Lidle crash, you say:

I did? Regarding the Lidle crash? Go back and read the post I wrote. I did not say that about the Lidle crash.
 
#1 I sleep like a baby at night, and I am currently (and have been) relaxed. Thus the civil tone of conversing we've been having.

Seems like pretty much everyone here is in agreement with your points listed above. If you detect some anger or frustration towards lawyers here, it's because they don't abide by the points you've listed - and they (the Plaintiff attorneys) matter a lot more than a few guys on JC. Nobody here said "let's kill all lawyers, who needs 'em!" either, so I'm not sure why you keep harping on that.

#1what, in a diaper..... :D

Alrighty then....Agreed I guess.... <note to self read slower, post slower.....>

I'd never say kill lawyers. At times they can be a necessary evil. A couple of times I have needed them myself. Mr. DUI totaled my wifes truck with her and the kids in it. And then there was that BAD dayare lady.....I'd like to wring her neck as well as her defense lawyer.... ;) How's that for irony.....:insane:
 
Good grief....you should go to law school so you can rewrite the laws yourself. Or at least learn to make a coherent argument. You list your attack as something that wasn't the company's fault, then say it was an example of something that you could have sued over. No you couldn't-you said it yourself. What does this prove about tort reform? All you're saying is that you're special. Fine-you're better than everyone else, you don't have to prove that.

Of course I could've sued them. I could sue my neighbor because I don't like the color of his car. All it takes is a filing fee. Would I have won? Hard to say since I didn't take it to court. But the right attorney with the right spin... Something like "This poor boy, working his way through school, was the victim of an unprovoked attack, blah blah. How could this terrible company hire a manager that would do such a thing!" You win juries over with emotion, not logic.

You say that in accident investigation, there's a pathetic lack of self responsibility. I see it as ignorance on the public's part. They don't know the engineering side of things as well as you, maybe it was their fault, maybe it wasn't. The point is that they wouldn't know the difference. I also see people's ignorance in their posts, judging lawyers, pilots' actions, juries, etc, when they know nothing about the case. These posts are no better than John Q Public making unfounded claims about an aircraft crash that he knows nothing about. (This is you.)

Yeah... So maybe they need an engineering degree to realize sticking their hand in a running lawn mower isn't the best idea (yeah, this really happened and the mower company paid out). Or maybe riding around on your ATV, completely wasted is another one of those decisions requiring superior intellect? I'm beginning to get the feeling you don't know what an accident investigator is.
 
Haha, you're right. Now I'm the big man...now you admit that everything else I wrote was right and you can be the big man too.

Is that was this is to you? A di** measuring contest?

This is why I stay on it: We as general aviation pilots need to keep this stuff straight in front of the general public. Writing letters to the station whenever they have some one sided story is a start. Writing letters to the editors of newspapers and to politicians is another thing that really helps. Everytime some blowhard gets in front of a camera for this 15 secs of fame it hurts us. Whenever another ridiculous lawsuit goes through, it hurts US - you and I.
 
This is why I stay on it: We as general aviation pilots need to keep this stuff straight in front of the general public. Writing letters to the station whenever they have some one sided story is a start. Writing letters to the editors of newspapers and to politicians is another thing that really helps. Everytime some blowhard gets in front of a camera for this 15 secs of fame it hurts us. Whenever another ridiculous lawsuit goes through, it hurts US - you and I.

Like it or not, this is more or less the truth. We live in a country where mom and dad can sue the manufacturer of vacuum pumps in an airplane and win because they couldn't accept the fact that junior got spacial disorientation and killed himself. Nevermind the fact that the NTSB and the hard evidence said the pumps were WORKING at the time of the crash. Said company is now out of business due to the decision of the court.

The reason the cost of a new airplane is so dang high is the liability associated with designing and selling it. Lawsuits like the one above are what drove the price of GA aircraft beyond normal means.
 
Is that was this is to you? A di** measuring contest?

This is why I stay on it: We as general aviation pilots need to keep this stuff straight in front of the general public. Writing letters to the station whenever they have some one sided story is a start. Writing letters to the editors of newspapers and to politicians is another thing that really helps. Everytime some blowhard gets in front of a camera for this 15 secs of fame it hurts us. Whenever another ridiculous lawsuit goes through, it hurts US - you and I.

I'm being lighthearted. Ridiculous lawsuits go through and it hurts everyone. But far more often, people are squashed by insurance companies who have better lawyers than the plantiff. Good lawsuits get buried by bad lawyers and the whole time the plantiffs get to suffer. Insurance companies' goals are to pay you as little and as late as possible, and since they are the ones with the money, they normally win. In this country, except in some contract law, loser does not pay. The need for tort reform as proposed by the current administration is a myth.

The balance of power is firmly in the hands of the insurance companies and business. And I've had plenty of experience with different car garages, and for every 1 customer who brings in a tampered transmission, there are 10 cars damaged by the garage that don't get noticed because customers are ignorant. I've had plugs unplugged and not plugged back in, accessory belts put on wrong, all of my wheels have been scratched, bolts overtorqued/missing, and my cars have had 2 confirmed joyrides, 1 of which resulted in my car being crashed by a garage employee.
Each time, I have had no recourse but to change garages and not give them my business anymore. My point is that business takes advantage of people much more the other way around. Tort reform is based around the idea that people are suing and winning for every little thing. You are right on 1 point: There is a pathetic LACK of self responsibility out in our society. But businesses get away with it more often than the little guy because they have money and are backed by insurance companies who want to maximize their profits.
 
The NTSB has not completed the investigation, this person does not work for the NTSB, etc... So he really has no idea what led to the accident. It is never "One" thing; It is a "chain of events".

Man, you don't have much of a lawyer if the NTSB report in any way inhibits your case.

This is a very standard case profile. The pilots involved accept responsiblity (the ultimate in this case). They screwed up, they died. The baseball player probably had ample life insurance to care for his family. If he didn't that's his fault. But there's no way he would have it in mind to sue someone else for his mistake. But he has no say in it, he's dead.

Now the lawyer surveys the scene and sees all the components he needs to cash in. Grieving young family (the jury will love that.) The financial situation of the family, whether they need the money or not will not be admissible at trial, not relevant. So all he has to do is get this before a jury. He and Cirrus can present experts until the jury can't stand it anymore, they don't understand any of it anyway. All the jury knows is they have the power to reach into someone else's deep pockets and give this beautiful young mom and fatherless child all the money they could ever need. It's a lay down. Cirrus knows it and will offer a big settlement to keep this away from a jury.

You can defend lawyers all you want. Just remember that whether you ever need one or not you will spend hundreds of thousands of dollars in your life on lawyers. The cost of this litigation BS is built into every product you buy. The companies you work for have to pay for it. You pay for it in all your insurance premiums. It's really a staggering amount. So a good portion of your labor goes to support this. We all might as well love lawyers because we are all paying their salaries.
 
Man, you don't have much of a lawyer if the NTSB report in any way inhibits your case.
.........
You can defend lawyers all you want. Just remember that whether you ever need one or not you will spend hundreds of thousands of dollars in your life on lawyers. The cost of this litigation BS is built into every product you buy. The companies you work for have to pay for it. You pay for it in all your insurance premiums. It's really a staggering amount. So a good portion of your labor goes to support this. We all might as well love lawyers because we are all paying their salaries.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JEP
The NTSB has not completed the investigation, this person does not work for the NTSB, etc... So he really has no idea what led to the accident. It is never "One" thing; It is a "chain of events".

Not defending lawyers by any means and I was referring to the poster. I would hope the lawyers start well before the 'report' comes out.
 
And I've had plenty of experience with different car garages, and for every 1 customer who brings in a tampered transmission, there are 10 cars damaged by the garage that don't get noticed because customers are ignorant. I've had plugs unplugged and not plugged back in, accessory belts put on wrong, all of my wheels have been scratched, bolts overtorqued/missing, and my cars have had 2 confirmed joyrides, 1 of which resulted in my car being crashed by a garage employee.
Each time, I have had no recourse but to change garages and not give them my business anymore. My point is that business takes advantage of people much more the other way around. Tort reform is based around the idea that people are suing and winning for every little thing. You are right on 1 point: There is a pathetic LACK of self responsibility out in our society. But businesses get away with it more often than the little guy because they have money and are backed by insurance companies who want to maximize their profits.

Consumer complaints and this stupid lawsuit are not in the same neighborhood. There are all kinds of ways to handle crooked auto shops. Step one is know your shop, get recommendations, etc. And if they are crooked get the cops involved. Get the consumer reporters involved etc.

The idea that we as a society need to pay billions to support this out-of-control tort system because you don't know how to find a reputable auto shop is ridiculous.
 
The idea that we as a society need to pay billions to support this out-of-control tort system because you don't know how to find a reputable auto shop is ridiculous.

That wasn't my point...my point is that business takes advantage of the consumer because they can. Small or large, companies abuse their power because they can make more money that way. Also, Cirrus is known as a company that does not settle. Flyover, where do you get your info about the pilot's decisions about not wanting to sue? Where do you draw your conclusions about the causes of the Lidle crash? You are making conclusions based on nothing other than your guesses.

It's better for a society to pay billions to protect its rights rather than sacrifice them so bus. can make a few more bucks. In China, it's difficult to successfully sue someone unless you get someone to give you a favor, in return for a bribe.:) In that case, whoever is more connected wins the case. This is what you are suggesting:a system in which the bigger man wins. This is where the republicans have been slowly pushing the governement, and pushing public opnion.. We have a system in which merit wins. It's not perfect, but it is among the most fair systems in the world-because the small guy has rights.
 
Flyover, where do you get your info about the pilot's decisions about not wanting to sue? Where do you draw your conclusions about the causes of the Lidle crash? You are making conclusions based on nothing other than your guesses.

Decades of aviation lawsuits are on Flyover's side. See the case above, and that's a RECENT one. I've still got my aviation law textbook if you want another two or ten. Bottom line is, lawyers see $$$ with something like this. Greiving family, fatherless children and potential lost income in the millions makes for a drool worthy case for some bottom feeding lawyer. It doesn't take much to sway a jury with emotion, as past aviation cases have shown. Due to the high technical content of these cases, my guess is it's all over they jury's head and they tune out.

It's better for a society to pay billions to protect its rights rather than sacrifice them so bus. can make a few more bucks.

If I can get a few bucks knocked off the products I buy so the manufactuers don't have to pay for litigation protection from stupid people, then I'm all for it. Personally, if the person doesn't know the hammer hurts when they hit them, you shouldn't use the hair dryer while sleeping and the coffee is hot, then they shouldn't buy the product....or even set foot outside of the house. All of those were cases where people and lawyers saw $$$$ and took advantage of it. This drives the cost of a lot of products (airplane especially) up b/c the manufacturer has to go through legal battles to protect themselves from firvilous lawsuits. I'd rather have a few people taken by a crooked auto shop b/c they didn't research it than have everyone pay higher prices that know better.
 
I just want to reiterate that I didn't claim to know what led to the accident. My only knowledge of what happend is what is in the preliminary NTSB report. I was commenting on the fact that this lawyer is making a claim that he's certain it was faulty ailerons that caused this accident. How does he know this? What does he know that the NTSB doesn't? To me it just seems like another guy trying to cash in on a tragedy.
 
Small or large, companies abuse their power because they can make more money that way.

That is such demonstrably false BS, but more and more becoming the "common wisdom". Guess we need to eliminate business all together and find utopia. Businesses that do not deliver for their customers or abuse their customers as a policy do not do well and usually fail. Try living in a country that protects their people from the evils of free enterprise. Consumer decisions there involve which line to stand in, the rotten bread line or the toilet paper line.

Flyover, where do you get your info about the pilot's decisions about not wanting to sue?

40 years of knowing pilots. And all the history of aviation lawsuits. It's possible Lidle is the exception, a weiner that flies but assumes no responsibility for the risks involved, but from everything I've read about his enthusiasm for flying, I'm guessing not.

Where do you draw your conclusions about the causes of the Lidle crash? You are making conclusions based on nothing other than your guesses.

My "conclusion" was that the picture of a popular sports figure leaving a widow and child behind would mean a jury would take lots of money from Cirrus and give it to Mrs. Lidle. What does the actual cause of the accident have to do with it? Is this some new criteria for a civil suit?

It's better for a society to pay billions to protect its rights rather than sacrifice them so bus. can make a few more bucks.

a) Enough with inventing phony rights. How about your "right" to not bear ridiculous costs associated with an out-of-control tort system.

b) Companies don't pay these costs, consumers do, all of them.



We have a system in which merit wins.

You're kidding right?
 
That is such demonstrably false BS, but more and more becoming the "common wisdom". Guess we need to eliminate business all together and find utopia. Businesses that do not deliver for their customers or abuse their customers as a policy do not do well and usually fail. Try living in a country that protects their people from the evils of free enterprise. Consumer decisions there involve which line to stand in, the rotten bread line or the toilet paper line.

a) Enough with inventing phony rights. How about your "right" to not bear ridiculous costs associated with an out-of-control tort system.

b) Companies don't pay these costs, consumers do, all of them.

Your argument is wrong. This is not a "phony right" that I made up. Your well-being is compromised because someone decided it was cheaper to settle lawsuits and continue to let people get hurt.

"the tort system should be more than simply a method of compensating the victims of misfortune. Instead, it should be a free-market tool for preventing accidents in the first place. In the real world, this usually meant hiking the liability on manufacturers, giving them a financial incentive to improve the safety of their products. The economic theory essentially held that the most socially efficient outcome would be achieved when the cost of the safety improvements matched the cost of being sued"

http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/05_11/b3924601.htm

That is from this article, titled "how to fix the tort system". "Surprisingly, the excesses in America's legal system grew out of the country's commitment to free markets and individualism. Modern tort law began with the unprecedented wave of injuries spawned by the Industrial Revolution. The progressives and New Dealers who championed the expansion of tort liability "wanted to create social insurance for the many misfortunes of life, including accidental injury, disability, and unemployment.

...built into the Western European system is an even greater degree of regulation..."You can substitute for tort law by having more extensive social insurance and relying on regulators to a greater extent," says Mark Geistfeld, an expert in comparative jurisprudence at New York University School of Law. "But it's not like the cost disappears; it just becomes part of the tax base."

The crisis is not that ambulance chasers are wrecking the economy, but that too many entrepreneurial personal-injury attorneys have found illegitimate ways to earn money. Tort reformers aren't directly attacking this problem. Instead of cracking down on exploitative lawyers, the critics often try to solve the problem by punishing their clients. For instance, the White House's main idea for reducing the cost of medical malpractice litigation is to place an arbitrary $250,000 ceiling on pain-and-suffering recoveries, which would hurt the most severely injured malpractice victims, such as those blinded or paralyzed. That would also shortchange blue-collar workers, the elderly, and others who couldn't receive big compensation for lost earnings.

Only about 2% of the people who are genuinely injured even bother to file lawsuits, according to most studies."

The tort system does have problems, but it's not out of control and not going to be solved by stripping individuals of their rights to their day in court. Proposed tort reform serves only to protect businesses and nothing to solve the actual problems. While you chuckle while watching your company's sexual harrassment prevention video, someone may have been attacked before it was necessary. Your car is safe partly because someone was injured, they sued, and something was changed to make it safer.

Also,some of your argument is that people pay unfairly for the results of lawsuits. The article above shows that the money has to come from somewhere-either taxes like in europe, or add it into the cost of your lawnmower. In the end, your statements like:

This is a very standard case profile. The pilots involved accept responsiblity (the ultimate in this case). They screwed up, they died.....

have no basis. How do you know they screwed up? Your arguments are so ridiculous that I'm done.
 
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