F-18 Crash Near Mt. Rainier

Kingairer said:
From an alternate civilian only perspective, I never wanted to fly fighters, I just fell in love with civilian aviation and all I ever wanted to do. It's not that I believe this is the most exciting flying that's out there.
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And that is a great thing. You have achieved, and are doing, what you’ve always wanted to do. A perfectly valid perspective.
 
A kid I went to high school with got an appointment to the AF academy. Upon graduation, they were handing out jobs and needed C141 pilots. He had no real interest in flying but that's the job he got. Did his four or six years, whatever it was, and moved on. No interest in flying. He went into the trades and started his own business. Always drove me crazy cause he could have gone to whatever major airline he wanted back in those days. Just walked away. The most "interesting" (not boring) flying job I ever had Grand Canyon tours in single engine Cessna's. Back in those days you could fly below the rim in the west end and we gave people a great ride. It paid 600/mo plus 6/hour in 1984. I'll take boring 121 any day for the money, schedule, and retirement.
 
DE727UPS said:
A kid I went to high school with got an appointment to the AF academy. Upon graduation, they were handing out jobs and needed C141 pilots. He had no real interest in flying but that's the job he got. Did his four or six years, whatever it was, and moved on. No interest in flying. He went into the trades and started his own business. Always drove me crazy cause he could have gone to whatever major airline he wanted back in those days. Just walked away. The most "interesting" (not boring) flying job I ever had Grand Canyon tours in single engine Cessna's. Back in those days you could fly below the rim in the west end and we gave people a great ride. It paid 600/mo plus 6/hour in 1984. I'll take boring 121 any day for the money, schedule, and retirement.
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At the USAF academy, if you are otherwise qualified for pilot training, it’s almost expected that you attend. I’ve heard you have to justify why you wouldn’t want to. Unlike OCS pogues like myself who had to compete for very few pilot/navigator training slots offered to our commissioning source.
 
My wifes cousin flew SH-60s off of carriers 25 years ago and never flew anything afterwards, these days he owns a courier business for veterinarians and pet meds and seems quite successful. I asked him once about why he didn't try to transfer into any sort of civilian flying and he said a couple of things. Civilian flying didn't interest him and when he left the navy the airlines weren't hiring rotary wing pilots like they are these days so he went a different direction. He seemed a little sad when he told me about it.
 
///AMG said:
I've known a number of people (maybe double digits by now?) from my navy days who went to Delta or Fedex or wherever, and quit after a year or two because they hated it. Left the airlines and professional flying entirely. I don't think it was the crewed cockpit thing/working with others for them. Mostly just hating year 1, maybe realizing the career involved more being gone and flying • schedules, and less getting $40k 2-day green slips every trip. We still have the crew in perhaps a slightly less formalized and scripted sense, whether that be multi-seated tactical aircraft (prowler, growler, tomcat, F/A-18F) or just the crew concept within a multi-aircraft flight with your wingmen. There might be someone every once in a while who can't adjust to that, or maybe slightly more commonly, the retired senior mil person who can't accept being the FNG again and being the #2 in the flight deck. I still imagine that's a smaller %, but you guys would know better than me since I don't fly with them in my seat. I know there is or was a pretty notorious retired O-6 Hornet guy at my shop, who according to legend, very much fit this personality. Maybe retired, I've never flown with him. But I know they are out there, probably at any place. I also know a non-zero amount of military pilots who have absolutely no interest in commercial flying or aircraft, and it was always pretty much just "fly fighters" or nothing for them. Maybe this is the realization that some people come to once they've done it, that they weren't consciously aware of beforehand? I dunno, for me I just like flying, doesn't matter if its mil aircraft or a people bus or whatever else.
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As neither military nor 121, I've always wondered how folks make the transition. I suppose like anything else, it's ultimately the individual's attitude. Paco Chierici addresses this in his interview with Ward Carroll. He talks about "quitting cold turkey" and joining the airline world, then being very thankful that he received a call to join VFC-13 as an F-5 adversary pilot. He refers to it as the methadone to help him keep is hand in the game and make the transition. I would think also, after X years of yanking and banking, the neck and back start to become less forgiving, and straight and level provides the view and travel without destroying one's spine.

I watch way too many hours of interviews on Youtube with Naval Aviators. I'm often struck by how "dramatic" the change is. A lot of these guys have successful, storied careers in the Navy, and then transition to a drastically different kind of flying. For instance, Greg Woolbridge has led the Blues on 3 separate occasions and went to FedEx, starting as an FE. Saccomando was an F-14 demo pilot and later a Blue Angel that went to Continental, furloughed, flew for the FBI for 7 years, then 2 years at Under Amour (has a cameo on Ballers), and then to United. And, Alaska's very own Larry Packer was a Blue too. But, what really strikes me the most is how humble all these guys are. And great sense of humor. They just seem like really nice dudes.

BTW, I haven't watched a C.W. Youtube in a long, long time. I just never connected with him or his content presentation (which may explain the comments about him). Also, I tried very hard not to use callsigns, but it's difficult because unless one is paying close attention to the intro's, they use their callsigns frequently throughout the interview :).

Lastly, as a side note apropos of nothing, I've always scratched my head regarding the Navy leaving Miramar for Lemoore. I lived in Fresno for 2 years, and while the people were amazing, the Central Valley is...well... not like San Diego. Think about the young s hot pilots being in Lemoore knowing that their predecessors partied in SD.
 
DE727UPS said:
A kid I went to high school with got an appointment to the AF academy. Upon graduation, they were handing out jobs and needed C141 pilots. He had no real interest in flying but that's the job he got. Did his four or six years, whatever it was, and moved on. No interest in flying. He went into the trades and started his own business. Always drove me crazy cause he could have gone to whatever major airline he wanted back in those days. Just walked away. The most "interesting" (not boring) flying job I ever had Grand Canyon tours in single engine Cessna's. Back in those days you could fly below the rim in the west end and we gave people a great ride. It paid 600/mo plus 6/hour in 1984. I'll take boring 121 any day for the money, schedule, and retirement.
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I'm going to make a wild ass guess about society in general, the majority of folks don't give a crap about aviation, much less actually operating one of these machines. For the majority of our society the closest they get to aviation is as a passenger on a 737 or a 320 and that's it. That dude probably never cared about aviation growing up, for him going to the academy and then flying was just another step and job on his perceived ladder to whatever he was striving towards. If anyone is reading the stuff posted on this site they probably love airplanes and it started when they were toddlers. I'm 54 and I walked out of a store yesterday and a C-5 flew over and I just stopped and watched it. People are built differently, I don't know if it's nature or nurture but aviation people are different. That's not always a good thing, it's just a thing.
 
BTW, I haven't watched a C.W. Youtube in a long, long time. I just never connected with him or his content presentation (which may explain the comments about him). Also, I tried very hard not to use callsigns, but it's difficult because unless one is paying close attention to the intro's, they use their callsigns frequently throughout the interview :).
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Meh, I was never a fan. He seems like the kind of dude that loves the smell of his own farts.
 
Kingairer said:
From an alternate civilian only perspective, I never wanted to fly fighters, I just fell in love with civilian aviation and all I ever wanted to do. It's not that I believe this is the most exciting flying that's out there.
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As a counterpoint, I freely admit that I would have killed to fly fighters, but it was never going to happen. Though honestly, my dream would have been flying a multi-role attack aircraft.

Second best would have been flying fire—my achievable dream job that I regret not pursuing earlier.

121 flying ain't even on the spectrum, for me—but it's still way higher than flying GA, even doing acro (my beloved), because I need a mission.

I suspect that there are many reasons for all the things we do and why we do them.
 
FlyingAccountant said:
Meh, I was never a fan. He seems like the kind of dude that loves the smell of his own farts.
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This is the prologue to the description of a single seat military fighter pilot. I find it odd that people want the best military and then simultaneously crap on the dudes in the seats. Someone has to fly them, sorry it wasn't you.
 
knot4u said:
This is the prologue to the description of a single seat military fighter pilot. I find it odd that people want the best military and then simultaneously crap on the dudes in the seats. Someone has to fly them, sorry it wasn't you.
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Since when is being an insufferable jackass a prerequisite to fly fighter jets?
 
FlyingAccountant said:
Since when is being an insufferable jackass a prerequisite to fly fighter jets?
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Since the beginning of air combat. Hoover was a gentleman by any measure, Yeager was prickly. Would you want to get down with Robin Olds? Being a pretentious ass is not a prerequisite. You can assume they were all arrogant pricks, and you'd be right except for Bob Hoover, he was a very nice person that didn't take himself very seriously despite his accomplishments and deeds. He broke out of a POW camp during WWII and stole a FW190 and flew it back to safety and he'd never say a word about it unless you asked. Being an ass isn't a prerequisite, it's a character trait, you have to have the confidence to go willingly fight for your life and believe you're going to win. I'll agree some of those fighter guys/girls are insufferable but that's what it takes to do the job. Someone has to do it and I'm happy they think they're better than anyone else, why even fight if they didn't?
 
knot4u said:
Since the beginning of air combat. Hoover was a gentleman by any measure, Yeager was prickly. Would you want to get down with Robin Olds? Being a pretentious ass is not a prerequisite. You can assume they were all arrogant pricks, and you'd be right except for Bob Hoover, he was a very nice person that didn't take himself very seriously despite his accomplishments and deeds. He broke out of a POW camp during WWII and stole a FW190 and flew it back to safety and he'd never say a word about it unless you asked. Being an ass isn't a prerequisite, it's a character trait, you have to have the confidence to go willingly fight for your life and believe you're going to win. I'll agree some of those fighter guys/girls are insufferable but that's what it takes to do the job. Someone has to do it and I'm happy they think they're better than anyone else, why even fight if they didn't?
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What did you mean by this?
 
knot4u said:
I'm going to make a wild ass guess about society in general, the majority of folks don't give a crap about aviation, much less actually operating one of these machines. For the majority of our society the closest they get to aviation is as a passenger on a 737 or a 320 and that's it. That dude probably never cared about aviation growing up, for him going to the academy and then flying was just another step and job on his perceived ladder to whatever he was striving towards. If anyone is reading the stuff posted on this site they probably love airplanes and it started when they were toddlers. I'm 54 and I walked out of a store yesterday and a C-5 flew over and I just stopped and watched it. People are built differently, I don't know if it's nature or nurture but aviation people are different. That's not always a good thing, it's just a thing.
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I've found most pilots exist on a spectrum with a zero in the middle. Some who are closer in stay in a pretty close orbit, those a bit further out stay involved, but distant, and those further out still eventually spin off do something else.

10-12 days a month is totally doable if you don't care about the money and/or were careful with bidding. I used to bid a pretty minimum schedule and simply chill a ton. Some people are about the dollars, and can be pretty intense.
 
🦈💜 said:
You know, I've seen a lot of people's schedules at different airlines, and I'm just not seeing 10-12 days/month for most people.
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I mean i do bid min credit every month, so that might be part of it. My line is typically 69-70 hrs total, and i never pick anything extra up. I’d guess that a lot of folks happy place is the 80-100 hrs total, so that checks out.
 
Cushion Rider said:
As neither military nor 121, I've always wondered how folks make the transition. I suppose like anything else, it's ultimately the individual's attitude. Paco Chierici addresses this in his interview with Ward Carroll. He talks about "quitting cold turkey" and joining the airline world, then being very thankful that he received a call to join VFC-13 as an F-5 adversary pilot. He refers to it as the methadone to help him keep is hand in the game and make the transition. I would think also, after X years of yanking and banking, the neck and back start to become less forgiving, and straight and level provides the view and travel without destroying one's spine.

I watch way too many hours of interviews on Youtube with Naval Aviators. I'm often struck by how "dramatic" the change is. A lot of these guys have successful, storied careers in the Navy, and then transition to a drastically different kind of flying. For instance, Greg Woolbridge has led the Blues on 3 separate occasions and went to FedEx, starting as an FE. Saccomando was an F-14 demo pilot and later a Blue Angel that went to Continental, furloughed, flew for the FBI for 7 years, then 2 years at Under Amour (has a cameo on Ballers), and then to United. And, Alaska's very own Larry Packer was a Blue too. But, what really strikes me the most is how humble all these guys are. And great sense of humor. They just seem like really nice dudes.

BTW, I haven't watched a C.W. Youtube in a long, long time. I just never connected with him or his content presentation (which may explain the comments about him). Also, I tried very hard not to use callsigns, but it's difficult because unless one is paying close attention to the intro's, they use their callsigns frequently throughout the interview :).

Lastly, as a side note apropos of nothing, I've always scratched my head regarding the Navy leaving Miramar for Lemoore. I lived in Fresno for 2 years, and while the people were amazing, the Central Valley is...well... not like San Diego. Think about the young s hot pilots being in Lemoore knowing that their predecessors partied in SD.
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Yeah giving up Miramar was a big mistake. I did initial Hornet training at Miramar, and so I am quite familiar with what they gave up in that move. Lemoore has continued to present retention problems to the Navy, particularly with in-demand enlisted maintenance rates. And of course aviators who just keep getting detailed to lemoore tour after tour. I got lucky and never spent any real time there, other than TAD a couple times (centerfuge, 2x swim survival recurrrents, and my initial Super Hornet transition course).

Small small world though in the names you mention. One of my best Navy buds who was a JO with me in our first fleet tour, is Larry Packer’s nephew. Never met Larry, but i heard great things (have met his brother, who is awesome, and retired from FedEx recently). And Saccamundo is currently my Admiral, as Chief of Naval Reserve Air Forces. I believe he has been on Mil LOA from United for a couple years now, since he took that job in the reserves. He also quit active duty at an unusual time, following his Blue Angels tour, and then a subsequent fleet department head tour…..ie pretty late, around 15+ years active duty by that point. Most “quit” at around 10-12 yrs. Not sure what the reason behind that was.
 
///AMG said:
I mean i do bid min credit every month, so that might be part of it. My line is typically 69-70 hrs total, and i never pick anything extra up. I’d guess that a lot of folks happy place is the 80-100 hrs total, so that checks out.
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So I've been working 18+/month on RE1, and it's been horrible. I posted some of my schedules here and people were like "Oh that doesn't look so bad, like a legacy narrowbody schedule." Some people posted their schedules and, while they didn't look as bad, they definitely weren't 10-12 on. When I asked about whether they had control of their schedule, most people said "no."

So I guess my question is: which is it? Are people working horrible schedules by choice for more $$$, or are we painting a false narrative with 10-12 days on per month? People talking about how great their QOL was is what convinced me to come to the airlines in the first place, so I'm trying to figure out if we truly live in different worlds, or if we need to paint a less-rosy picture for people.

This is unrelated to the main thread, but since the subject came up, I thought it'd be worth asking that question.
 
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