Oh SFO tower

[BEEF SUPREME]

I think this is a reason to be mad at the industry as a whole, not the individual airline. FWIW I’m uneasy with this concept as well, and I think in other seniority based industries like teaching you keep your spot and can make lateral moves (god forbid your life priorities change, you want to live a certain place and your airline closes the base there etc). I also don’t fly 121 (I just come here because I like you guys ) and fully admit my ignorance to why the industry is the way it is, but I’d be interested to see an honest discussion on why it ended up this way.

You like us? Why!?

 

[ClearedForOption]

I think in other seniority based industries like teaching you keep your spot and can make lateral moves ...... but I’d be interested to see an honest discussion on why it ended up this way.

Union politics, a failure to address the problem with an appropriate cutover date in the future (for instance 20 years?) for adequate preparation and contractual catch up, and honestly individual selfishness that derives from the single-airline-seniority driven system. (I got MINE)

PIlots all do the same job. Doesn't matter if it's a Beech 1900, 787, 1 leg, 7 legs, no-pax, full boat, cargo, domestic, international... but we are all 'yoked' to our airline because of the seniority/longevity system and there is no way to change it overnight. Management, who trade airlines like ballplayers switch teams, will continue to use this fact against us as long as they can. (Especially in concessionary bargaining environments.)

60ish thousand ALPA pilots... and about 60ish thousand different ideas about what would be 'fair.'

(To also be fair, being able to switch carriers and carry longevity/seniority with you would open up a whole new can of worms... but may also bring with it some amazing 'free market' benefits for labor. It's kind of a shame that this problem won't get fixed for at least another generation.)

 

[derg]

It would be odd. I couldn't imagine the churn running from fashionable carrier to fashionable carrier.

 

[inigo88]

Union politics, a failure to address the problem with an appropriate cutover date in the future (for instance 20 years?) for adequate preparation and contractual catch up, and honestly individual selfishness that derives from the single-airline-seniority driven system. (I got MINE)

PIlots all do the same job. Doesn't matter if it's a Beech 1900, 787, 1 leg, 7 legs, no-pax, full boat, cargo, domestic, international... but we are all 'yoked' to our airline because of the seniority/longevity system and there is no way to change it overnight. Management, who trade airlines like ballplayers switch teams, will continue to use this fact against us as long as they can. (Especially in concessionary bargaining environments.)

60ish thousand ALPA pilots... and about 60ish thousand different ideas about what would be 'fair.'

(To also be fair, being able to switch carriers and carry longevity/seniority with you would open up a whole new can of worms... but may also bring with it some amazing 'free market' benefits for labor. It's kind of a shame that this problem won't get fixed for at least another generation.)

Thank you for your thoughtful response. I was hoping nobody would take the question as an affront to pilots unions or hard fought work rules. Sometimes it’s just interesting to look at a system and ask why it works the way it does and how did it evolve to being that way.

It would be odd. I couldn't imagine the churn running from fashionable carrier to fashionable carrier.

Real world example: this kind of sounds like exactly what happened with nursing during covid. Big exodus of nurses jumped ship chasing better paying travel nursing positions. I’m not sure if the music has stopped quite yet and everyone’s found a chair, but it seems like it was pretty destabilizing.

 

[ClearedForOption]

Thank you for your thoughtful response. I was hoping nobody would take the question as an affront to pilots unions or hard fought work rules. Sometimes it’s just interesting to look at a system and ask why it works the way it does and how did it evolve to being that way.

This was probably the briefest of responses that I could have come up with. And very "IMHO." Not that I'm advocating for a change in the rules today when I'm past the far turn of my own career. It's just a very front and center problem since deregulation... And by that I mean, the system was designed and worked great when the industry was heavily regulated in the 50's and 60's. The Mad Med era of flying. The 80's and 90's showed us that the career is much more of a lottery. We are well into the current "churn" and 10 years from now it's going to be a totally different landscape for airline labor.

Networking, and a place like JC will be much more relevant. (not unlike the early part of the century when the hiring landscape was more bleak)

But, there is very much a 'seniority trap' in this industry that goes beyond the work that it takes to do the interview prep, job switching, etc. I tell the people that I fly with it's somewhere between 3-4 years at my shop. Golden Handcuffs. (Not that it's simple, age, retirements, hiring landscape, economy, etc. all play into it.)

For me, it was 2015-2016. That's when the handcuffs clicked on solid. A combination of all of the risk mitigation, apathy (and exhaustion from a transcon commute), and golden handcuffs. By 2018 it made no sense to even think about updating my apps seriously.

Anyhoo, read Sky Gods & Hard Landing. (and then maybe the 2 flying the line histories, worst to first, blue streak, and etc.) There is so much that can be read between the lines of those books about how we got to where we are.

 

[jhugz]

I’ve been out of the JC loop for a while but does every thread now just turn into two clowns that either paid to sit in the right seat for a regional or got hired on with a wet commercial get to complain about how hard they had in back in the day and how they’re superior aviators because their shop policies are superior to all others? I miss the days of getting called a scab for thinking about applying to Gojet.

 

[ChasenSFO]

Did you start with Mitch?

LOL!

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

Union politics, a failure to address the problem with an appropriate cutover date in the future (for instance 20 years?) for adequate preparation and contractual catch up, and honestly individual selfishness that derives from the single-airline-seniority driven system. (I got MINE)

PIlots all do the same job. Doesn't matter if it's a Beech 1900, 787, 1 leg, 7 legs, no-pax, full boat, cargo, domestic, international... but we are all 'yoked' to our airline because of the seniority/longevity system and there is no way to change it overnight. Management, who trade airlines like ballplayers switch teams, will continue to use this fact against us as long as they can. (Especially in concessionary bargaining environments.)

60ish thousand ALPA pilots... and about 60ish thousand different ideas about what would be 'fair.'

(To also be fair, being able to switch carriers and carry longevity/seniority with you would open up a whole new can of worms... but may also bring with it some amazing 'free market' benefits for labor. It's kind of a shame that this problem won't get fixed for at least another generation.)

Who are we kidding. Literally every single modern merger SLI went to arbitration. And that’s just between two airlines!

 

[ClearedForOption]

Who are we kidding. Literally every single modern merger SLI went to arbitration. And that’s just between two airlines!

That's why we need to blame the boomers for dropping the ball on this one.

 

[queeno]

Not to change the subject but ...................................................................TACOS , amiright

 

[derg]

Not to change the subject but ...................................................................TACOS , amiright

…Are the best. Making some Santa Maria-style tri-tip tacos this weekend! Hell year!

Slow roasted over Oak… Oh yes.!

 

[queeno]

…Are the best. Making some Santa Maria-style tri-tip tacos this weekend! Hell year!

Slow roasted over Oak… Oh yes.!

NICEeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee My youngest son turned Me and the Miss on to the Costco street TACOS ........................................... man that goooood eaten for the lazy

 

[derg]

NICEeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee My youngest son turned Me and the Miss on to the Costco street TACOS ........................................... man that goooood eaten for the lazy

Following this recipe: Traditional "Santa Maria BBQ" Oak Wood–Grilled Tri-Tip

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

When I was growing up, a child in Waterloo, Iowa, Tuesday was taco night.

 

[queeno]

Following this recipe: Traditional "Santa Maria BBQ" Oak Wood–Grilled Tri-Tip

Tanks ill give it a try , look amazing , My daughter lives in Milwaukee and they have some real good Taco trucks on Lincoln near s27th , just gotta watch out for the KIA boys.

 

[///AMG]

When I was growing up, a child in Waterloo, Iowa, Tuesday was taco night.

Would you say, Tuesdays are for the boys (in Waterloo)?

 

[derg]

Tanks ill give it a try , look amazing , My daughter lives in Milwaukee and they have some real good Taco trucks on Lincoln near s27th , just gotta watch out for the KIA boys.

I'm weird but I love Milwaukee. Wisconsin is a vastly underrated state! I even married a Sconie but I can't drag her back for a long weekend, but she certainly expects literally all the squeaky cheesecurds available for sale!

 

[tcco94]

Not to change the subject but ...................................................................TACOS , amiright

Was I summoned?

Anyways talking about an entire seniority list… I cannot WAIT to buddy bid @Cherokee_Cruiser

Or will you refuse to fly that one red airline… maybe we can hash it out

 

[tcco94]

I'm weird but I love Milwaukee. Wisconsin is a vastly underrated state! I even married a Sconie but I can't drag her back for a long weekend, but she certainly expects literally all the squeaky cheesecurds available for sale!

Come on now… you’re a 350 pilot… you do NOT miss those Milwaukee winters

The brats and beer though… I miss it

 

[derg]

Come on now… you’re a 350 pilot… you do NOT miss those Milwaukee winters

The brats and beer though… I miss it

Oh the winters were wicked, but nice and comfy inside a bar on Water Street!

Every city needs street brats.

Even MAD was fun.

I'll never layover there again, but when I'd have a 30h in MAD, I'd get loaded up on State, end up at State Street Brats and get a red and a white. Mmmm!