Ego vs Exo

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Peanut Vendor here...

So the report on the Burke battering is out.

With disregard to all the other factors, I'd like to focus on one that has bothered me since well before this accident: Exo- vs. Ego-Centric PFDs.

Rarefied lingo, I admit. Let's simplify and clarify. The Exo presents a fixed horizon with a moving "little airplane". The Ego presents a fixed "little airplane" with a moving horizon.

Seems simple and easy sitting at the desk reading about it, or even sitting in the cockpit looking at it.

I argue it is not simple. Especially when it comes to ingrained, intuitive response and/or stress-laden response. I argue this is probably one of those areas of aviation that should be standardized by law.

Switching from one "mode of virtual reality" to a precisely inverse "mode of virtual reality" seems probable to elicit massive cognitive dissonance and lead almost predictably to unmanageable disorientation even for the most experienced of pilots, leave alone less experienced pilots undergoing stress or overload. Ironically, it seems it could also create exceptionally tricky scenarios for the pilot who is highly experienced in one mode when he is confronted by the other mode.

This mode switch issue seems almost as loaded a proposition as asking a right hander to pitch left.

OK, peanut gallery. Go! Thoughts?
 
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Roger Roger said:
I have almost zero idea what we’re talking about here. Not all of us are “the last renaissance man” :)rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:) here so plain English please?
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Think of the difference between an attitude indicator that shows the horizon move versus one that is fixed and shows the airplane move.

BoTMI.jpg

How is a confusion possible between Western and Russian Attitude Indicators?
 
Roger Roger said:
Yeah, but you said it in one sentence and a picture.
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A picture is worth 1000 words. ;) There's more to it than that, I the sky pointer versus bank-angle thing is the great debate between Boeing and Airbii people among others. It'd be interesting to see some modern human factors engineering applied to this sort of thing - I imagine that there are probably better ways than a picture on a tiny little gauge to keep the situational awareness of bank angle up, but who knows.

For what it's worth, the stack exchange article is pretty interesting. I see no citations, but someone on there says that the Russian design came about from actual human factors testing during the Soviet Union.
 
ppragman said:
A picture is worth 1000 words. ;) There's more to it than that, I the sky pointer versus bank-angle thing is the great debate between Boeing and Airbii people among others. It'd be interesting to see some modern human factors engineering applied to this sort of thing - I imagine that there are probably better ways than a picture on a tiny little gauge to keep the situational awareness of bank angle up, but who knows.

For what it's worth, the stack exchange article is pretty interesting. I see no citations, but someone on there says that the Russian design came about from actual human factors testing during the Soviet Union.
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So, I read the probable cause (now that I think I know what the OP was referencing). Dark night, IMC, single pilot, fatigued, possibly low time in type. Yeah, maybe the PFD had a little to do with it, but I’d be lying if I said (having done exactly that kind of flying, though in a much lower performance aircraft) I couldn’t see that accident happening regardless of the PFD design.

Fatigue makes you stupid.
 
Roger Roger said:
So, I read the probable cause (now that I think I know what the OP was referencing). Dark night, IMC, single pilot, fatigued, possibly low time in type. Yeah, maybe the PFD had a little to do with it, but I’d be lying if I said (having done exactly that kind of flying, though in a much lower performance aircraft) I couldn’t see that accident happening regardless of the PFD design.

Fatigue makes you stupid.
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Being fatigued is worse than being drunk.

The PFD stuff does play a role though - if a display is hard to use or perhaps requires a very specific way of "thinking" about stuff unconsciously that goes against human nature (if that's even really a thing) then a compromised pilot will probably respond more poorly than with a better designed PFD.

Engineering solutions are probably better here in a lot of ways. Better automation, more intuitive automation, better design of systems, etc... there's a lot going on behind the scenes in these sorts of accidents.

Best solution - don't fly fatigued, but since the public and the industry don't care enough to legislate that sort of thing away for anyone other than passenger carrying 121 drivers, we're SOL there.

Next best solution - have good, easy to use, intuitive automation and make the pilot more of a "systems monitor" and less of a "stick and rudder aviator."

Next best solution - intuitive PFD design that's optimized for human factors.

This is a lot of words for me to basically say, "DON'T FLY F-ING TIRED!" The rest of this stuff is like trying to treat brain cancer by shooting it out of his head with a '45. "Well Mrs. Smith, the tumor is gone - that's true, however we ended up removing 52% of your husband's head in the process." There probably is an optimal PFD that will allow task saturated and sleepy aviator types to recover from LOSA or an upset quickly...but yeah, maybe we should just have them not fly when they're exhausted?
 
What do you mean the "report on the Burke battering is out" ???

I googled burke battering and the first serveral links are about women being battered/abused.
 
My first type was also my first time looking at a sky-pointer. Going from beautiful Avidyne PFD's to an EFIS sky-pointer was a shock, to say the least. I expressed my frustration that it was pointing the opposite way that it should. Initially, my sim partner and instructor did not understand, but when they did, one of them said "it's pointing at the sky." Things slowly got better after that. It's funny, though, the instructor seemed to think I was having problems with v1 cuts, when in reality I was just having problems with a different style of AH and FD that didn't become noticeable until the workload got high.
 
Roger Roger said:
I have almost zero idea what we’re talking about here. Not all of us are “the last renaissance man” :)rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:) here so plain English please?
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Sorry, you're absolutely right; A picture would have been valuable. I assumed everyone kinda knew the difference in equipment despite the fancy FAA nomenclature. I'd never heard Ego v Exo either.


Cherokee_Cruiser said:
What do you mean the "report on the Burke battering is out" ???

I googled burke battering and the first serveral links are about women being battered/abused.
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CJ4 crash at Lakefront.
 
Crop Duster said:
Sorry, you're absolutely right; A picture would have been valuable. I assumed everyone kinda knew the difference in equipment despite the fancy FAA nomenclature. I'd never heard Ego v Exo either.
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I must be way more lazy than you guys.

All I know about are the instruments in the airplanes I've been trained in.
 
ppragman said:
A picture is worth 1000 words. ;) There's more to it than that, I the sky pointer versus bank-angle thing is the great debate between Boeing and Airbii people among others. It'd be interesting to see some modern human factors engineering applied to this sort of thing - I imagine that there are probably better ways than a picture on a tiny little gauge to keep the situational awareness of bank angle up, but who knows.

For what it's worth, the stack exchange article is pretty interesting. I see no citations, but someone on there says that the Russian design came about from actual human factors testing during the Soviet Union.
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The Mustang the guy previously flew was "Exo" (Little Plane moves relative to pilot). The CJ4 the guy crashed was "Ego" (Little Plane fixed in pilot perspective / horizon tilts).
NTSB here: Full Narrative
Flying Mag has this: CJ4 Accident Points to Basic Instrument Flying Skills

From NTSB:
"Primary Flight Display
The attitude indicator presented by the PFD on the Cessna 525 was an ego-centric ("inside out") type display. An "inside out" perspective involves a fixed aircraft symbol and moving horizon similar to what a pilot sees when looking outside of the aircraft. On the other hand, the Cessna 510 utilizes an exo-centric ("outside in") display. An "outside in" perspective involves a fixed horizon and a moving aircraft symbol."
 
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Should of seen the train wreck in my head the first time I was on short final with an airspeed tape that went the “wrong” way. I’m being told of guys in the sim that suddenly initiated a go around as they thought the were ref and -10!
Will try to adjust quick...
 
bucksmith said:
Should of seen the train wreck in my head the first time I was on short final with an airspeed tape that went the “wrong” way. I’m being told of guys in the sim that suddenly initiated a go around as they thought the were ref and -10!
Will try to adjust quick...
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Yes. Precisely. Now imagine that response not just to airspeed, but to attitude. I can imagine it would be almost as confusing as trying to respond to reverse-rigged controls.
 
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Roger Roger said:
You would standardizing think this kind of thing would be part of the TSOs.
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Sorry if I baffled you with "vinibosity" in the OP. A little wine loosens my fingers to assault the keyboard.

That said, perhaps we all suffer that affliction. You would think putting the gerund after the verb would be standardized, too! :)
 
Crop Duster said:
Sorry if I baffled you with "vinibosity" in the OP. A little wine loosens my fingers to assault the keyboard.

That said, perhaps we all suffer that affliction. You would think putting the gerund after the verb would be standardized, too! :)
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Hands up don’t shoot, I’m busy at work doing this (no I’m not, I’m just making sure the pilot room recliner doesn’t float away).
 
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