The dark side of the pilot shortage.

wheelsup said:
Your understanding of what the "middle class" constitutes has been completely distorted.
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Curious - because I don't know.

What defines "middle class" - for the sake of keeping things simple, we'll consider income/assets as the benchmark. What range constitutes middle class these days?
 
It is all based on perspective and location. If one thinks 80k-100k is not enough money to live on comfortably and save up for retirement, and actually retire before they're 70yrs old then they either live in a high CoL area or were raised by wealth. Inflation has risen quite a bit, and I do believe we are soon approaching the days where 100k is not a great salary. Heck, 100k/yr in California is not enough to even buy a condo and have a mortgage less than 30% of your income. However, in Kansas you can buy a 5br house and that may be 20% of your income. I truly think certain places in the nation are rising too rapidly and am not looking forward to what the next five years will do, especially in the place I live.
 
killbilly said:
Curious - because I don't know.

What defines "middle class" - for the sake of keeping things simple, we'll consider income/assets as the benchmark. What range constitutes middle class these days?
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The two are very different. One can have an income of $40,000 from assets of $1m or one could earn $40,000 and have assets of $0 or even a negative net worth.

It's also going to vary by locality. The US is a huge land mass with wildly varying costs of living. One of the nice things about our jobs, we can live 1-2 hours drive away from city centers and live comparatively cheaply while still earning higher wages. Or commute and have ultra low living costs.

The lifestyle of the middle class has grown considerably. Two cars now vs one in past decades. Cell phones and other electronic gadgets consuming $100-$200/month. Homes that are 50% larger than they used to be, with associated heating and cooling costs and taxes on them. Daily coffee habits. Vacations that are flown to vs driven to. Cable TV is the norm, everyone used to have antennas for TV.

One thing we've seen over the last few decades is the "middle class" shrinking. That part is true and grabs headlines. Some are falling back into the working class. But also what is happening is more are coming up into the higher income ranges, or the top 20% is growing.
 
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wheelsup said:
The two are very different. One can have an income of $40,000 from assets of $1m or one could earn $40,000 and have assets of $0 or even a negative net worth.

It's also going to vary by locality. The US is a huge land mass with wildly varying costs of living. One of the nice things about our jobs, we can live 1-2 hours drive away from city centers and live comparatively cheaply while still earning higher wages. Or commute and have ultra low living costs.
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Okay. Let's narrow it further.

Strictly income. What's a Middle Class income?
 
wheelsup said:
Your understanding of what the "middle class" constitutes has been completely distorted.
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That's literally what I tell people that think 100k is a lot of money. It's akin to Stockholm syndrome from declining wages and what has become the new norm as a standard of living financed via debt that they can't repay.
The only way to attain a 50s-70s(before the destruction of labor and unions) middle class lifestyle is a household income of 100k or more. A bit less in the flyover states.
Everyone else is delusional that they are middle class without that income or is financing the lifestyle, they don't actually have it. And that's one of the brilliant things to keep the proles placated this century. Consumer debt. Just comfortable enough not to cut the heads off the robber barons, but beholden to them similar to the sharecroppers of the 1870s.
 
killbilly said:
Okay. Let's narrow it further.

Strictly income. What's a Middle Class income?
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Pew Research has traditionally defined it as 2/3 to 2x the median income adjusted for cost of living. This is household income. I'm guessing that is where the bell curve captures the most folks.
 
z987k said:
That's literally what I tell people that think 100k is a lot of money. It's akin to Stockholm syndrome from declining wages and what has become the new norm as a standard of living financed via debt that they can't repay.
The only way to attain a 50s-70s(before the destruction of labor and unions) middle class lifestyle is a household income of 100k or more. A bit less in the flyover states.
Everyone else is delusional that they are middle class without that income or is financing the lifestyle, they don't actually have it. And that's one of the brilliant things to keep the proles placated this century. Consumer debt. Just comfortable enough not to cut the heads off the robber barons, but beholden to them similar to the sharecroppers of the 1870s.
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Well that sounds more like a rant than anything else. What you have to remember is while the "middle class" has shrunk, the top is growing as people move into it.
  • How many people had $1,000 (adjusted for inflation) cell phones in the 1950's? Now people "lease" them!
  • How many had computers, iPads, and TVs in every room? Or even a single TV? How about cable? My grandparents had a large antenna on their roof. Never had cable. Netflix? The list goes on.
  • Healthcare cost almost exactly half of what it does nowadays, that would also be a considerable cost savings.
  • I read an article recently about clothing and shoes. "Back in the day" women had two or three pairs. The average now is 20. On average a woman will spend $25,000 over her lifetime in *shoes* alone these days.
The list goes on. Standard of living has considerably increased over time which is why you can't really compare apples to apples.

Costs haven't really changed as a % of income over the last 20 years. Around 4%. With the majority of that increase being taken up by healthcare costs.
 
wheelsup said:
The list goes on. Standard of living has considerably increased over time which is why you can't really compare apples to apples.
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I don't think anyone disputes that, you know, cool stuff has happened in the last 50 years. And yes we like our consumer electronics. What does any of this have to do with the vast, rapid, and exponentially increasing stratification of capital access?
 
Boris Badenov said:
I don't think anyone disputes that, you know, cool stuff has happened in the last 50 years. And yes we like our consumer electronics. What does any of this have to do with the vast, rapid, and exponentially increasing stratification of capital access?
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Just cut to the chase already and call for some bankstas hanging from lampposts! I miss circa 2007 Boris.
 
thegriffinpages said:
I don't disagree with you on this.

Here's the situation of someone I know.... He got himself so far into debt with credit cards (multiple meaning more than 6), and student loans that his credit was down the toilet and out to sea. I'm talking in the 400s. His situation was so bad that he couldn't even qualify anymore for a real bank account. I think he used Amex Serve. He was working for peanuts at the time.

He was finally able to work up to a Construction Manager job that paid a wage that he could live on, so he started using the Snow Ball method to pay off is debt. He did that for a few years. That allowed him to rebuild his credit (regular payments and his credit responsibility lowered) so he could get a real bank account. He eventually qualified for a credit card to consolidate some of the payments with the highest interest rates.

Now he still has several credit lines open that he's paying on but its much more manageable and he can pay off the higher interest ones first while keeping minimum payments on the other ones. During this time he's been putting a little in savings as well.

My point is that this person successfully used Dave Ramsey's Plan to get out of crummy credit and to a point where he could worry about interest rates.
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You understand that this person could have accomplished the same thing quicker while spending less money on interest without Ramsey’s BS by using basic math, right?

mshunter said:
You pay her to leave when she's finished.
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I’m glad someone understand this. ;)

Boris Badenov said:
I don't think anyone disputes that, you know, cool stuff has happened in the last 50 years. And yes we like our consumer electronics. What does any of this have to do with the vast, rapid, and exponentially increasing stratification of capital access?
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He seems to think that middle class people should just live like they did in the 50s without any of the modern world’s gadgets (many of which are basically necessities at this point), and that they’re entitled whiners if they think they should be able to live a somewhat modern life. As I’ve said before, he’s stingy. And he thinks everyone else should be, too.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
You understand that this person could have accomplished the same thing quicker while spending less money on interest without Ramsey’s BS by using basic math, right?
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Actually, I didn't know he could. It was just an example of someone I know that was successful at it.

This particular person's circumstances were the most extreme that I've ever heard about. I think the main deal was that since his credit was so crappy, he needed to repair that in order for him to work on the other stuff. I know when he told me it made sense to me at the time.


I don't want to get this thread off the rails more than it already is, but you are more than welcome to PM me your thoughts. I'm no financial guru and always glad to learn something!
 
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