The dark side of the pilot shortage.

[av8tr1]

If you don’t mind, who do you work for? PM if you want to keep it QT.

Its common knowledge I work for a FedEx feeder. I have worked in the past for two passenger carrying airlines. One paid salary and the other paid hourly.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Ok enlighten me, what's the difference? The type of leather for the seats? Coke instead of Pepsi? Shorter skirts for the FAs?

Assigned seating. In-flight entertainment. Flight attendants who are professionals instead of (bad) amateur comedians and singers. Airplanes bigger than a tuna can going to the west coast. When should I stop?

And that's without even getting to first class, which is what I always fly. Something the corndogs don't even offer.

 

[Soul Brotha']

I had a business partner once who always used to go around repeating the mantra "Culture eats Strategy for breakfast". He was in the final stage of his MBA. I always used to shake my head at the ridiculousness of that statement. But he was drinking the kool-aid of his MBA program and no amount of me pointing to the many Dot.bombs from the 2000s that failed because they had an awesome culture of foosball and table tennis but no real strategy for making money.

REALLY smart guy and I had a lot of respect for him (he didn't for me but that's cause I fly helicopters) but when it came to real world a lot of his MBA classroom stuff just did not carry over to the real world the way he thought it would.

He should ask for his money back from that school.

 

[Apophis]

Ok enlighten me, what's the difference? The type of leather for the seats? Coke instead of Pepsi? Shorter skirts for the FAs?

And I say this as a hometown boy from Atlanta. I love Delta. As a kid all my parents friends in aviation worked for Delta. Still don't see a difference in the product other than one has better marketing.

Well, one of those airlines has first class. One of them offers transoceanic flights. One of them has professional looking flight/cabin crews and the other has crews that look/act like employees at an 8th grade summer camp.

 

[av8tr1]

Assigned seating. In-flight entertainment. Flight attendants who are professionals instead of (bad) amateur comedians and singers. Airplanes bigger than a tuna can going to the west coast. When should I stop?

And that's without even getting to first class, which is what I always fly. Something the corndogs don't even offer.

A main cabin seat to ATL from GEG two weeks from now is $450 on Delta and $250 on SW. So assigned seating is the only thing different from the two operators. Both have in-flight entertainment BOTH have PROFESSIONAL flight attendants (IE they both had the same FAA required training) just one group is more customer friendly than the other. Main cabin seats are roughly the same size.

Less than 10% of the Delta market flies first class. That 10% (and that is being generous) isn't going to make up the difference in pilot salaries we are talking about.

So yes I am still not seeing a difference for 90% of the flying public. But hey you enjoy that ice cream up in first class for your two hour flight.

 

[av8tr1]

Well, one of those airlines has first class. One of them offers transoceanic flights. One of them has professional looking flight/cabin crews and the other has crews that look/act like employees at an 8th grade summer camp.

Yep, you got me there ONE has first class. That makes a ton a sense going from ATL to Japan. But for my 1.5 hour flight to nowheresville I don't see the value of the leather recliner for a cost benefit analysis. Again the flight/cabin crews have the same training. Just one is more approchable than the other.

This is my constant complaint about the 121 world. You guys are so stuck on yourselves having to be the best and having the best you forget that the rest of the world doesn't live that way. 90%(Plus) of the flying public can't afford 1st class. So you want to hang the entire industry on the 10%? I'm sure that will work out really well for you.

 

[av8tr1]

He should ask for his money back from that school.

I said the exact same thing to him.

 

[wheelsup]

Your assumption is that the customer will pay a infinite amount for that seat. The average customer will rarely chose the most expensive. Not saying all will not, I am saying most won't. Your Delta analogy is spot on but there is room for only one Delta. They can take less than 15% of the market for people who are willing to pay any amount for 1st class service.

I represent the other 85%. They will pay market rates. That is whatever the cheapest in the class of service they want is. So if company A is selling tickets at $150, and company B is selling them at $160 and the perceived value is the same (A-B air travel) the 85% is going to go with company A.

So now we know there is a finite amount available for profit. It's the average of the competition rates. So if everyone averages out $150 a seat then the company needs to make their profit in that $150. If the shared cost of the operation is $140 for that flight then there is $10 available to play with.

Anecdotally, every Southwest flight experience I have taken has beaten every single Delta flight I have ever flown. Both offer roughly the same result A-B air travel. I wouldn't ever pay for a first class seat, ever period dot. Some people are willing to pay for that perceived better seat most won't. Delta doesn't attract every passenger. I won't ever willingly chose Delta over Southwest if I had my choice. Not saying Delta offers bad service. But my wallet can handle Southwest, it can't handle Delta. And really the customer service at Southwest has been head over heels better at Southwest than Delta. Delta tends to attract the snobbish. The guys who complain about spending 2K for a 1st class seat and have to sit next to a deadheading pilot who got lucky enough to sit in the 2nd row with mr. big pants who thinks he makes 10x what our poor wayward deadhead makes.

My wife works for a company with its own travel department. They used to allow her to book any airline regardless of cost. Now they rank it by cost and book the cheapest using her parameters.

They have direct access to airlines systems and can book the better seats for the same price but that is as far as their perks go. Price is king for the vast majority. If it weren't, Delta wouldn't be rolling out basic economy fares.

 

[ZapBrannigan]

I don’t know... I’d pony up for Mint if I was going someplace JetBlue flew. Just to try it. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[wheelsup]

I can’t think of a single airline that doesn’t pay by the hour. The math still holds, regardless of hour/salary or charter/scheduled.

I must really be missing something. If you pay salary like most charter/91 does, the more the aircraft flies the lower the crew costs per hour. The lower all indirect costs are.

 

[wheelsup]

I don’t know... I’d pony up for Mint if I was going someplace JetBlue flew. Just to try it. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Ok, you're in the top 10% of earners in the country.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

A main cabin seat to ATL from GEG two weeks from now is $450 on Delta and $250 on SW.

Nice anecdote. In reality, Southwest is priced about the same as the other major carriers. Many times Delta is priced below Southworst.

So assigned seating is the only thing different from the two operators.

Actually, I listed multiple differences. Nice cherry-pick, though. It is a big difference all by itself.

Both have in-flight entertainment

Uh, no, they don't. In fact, those trailer-park rednecks pulled the SiriusXM radios out of our AirTran birds the second they showed up. They were too cheap to keep it maintained. Same reason they don't have autoland on their 737s.

BOTH have PROFESSIONAL flight attendants (IE they both had the same FAA required training)

We clearly have very different definitions of professionalism.

just one group is more customer friendly than the other.

Agreed, the widget definitely has Southworst beat in that department. I enjoy not being treated like self-loading cattle.

Yep, you got me there ONE has first class. That makes a ton a sense going from ATL to Japan. But for my 1.5 hour flight to nowheresville I don't see the value of the leather recliner for a cost benefit analysis. Again the flight/cabin crews have the same training. Just one is more approchable than the other.

This is my constant complaint about the 121 world. You guys are so stuck on yourselves having to be the best and having the best you forget that the rest of the world doesn't live that way. 90%(Plus) of the flying public can't afford 1st class. So you want to hang the entire industry on the 10%? I'm sure that will work out really well for you.

Apparently you don't realize that domestic coach seats are mostly loss-leaders. Always have been.

 

[NickH]

A main cabin seat to ATL from GEG two weeks from now is $450 on Delta and $250 on SW. So assigned seating is the only thing different from the two operators. Both have in-flight entertainment BOTH have PROFESSIONAL flight attendants (IE they both had the same FAA required training) just one group is more customer friendly than the other. Main cabin seats are roughly the same size.

Less than 10% of the Delta market flies first class. That 10% (and that is being generous) isn't going to make up the difference in pilot salaries we are talking about.

So yes I am still not seeing a difference for 90% of the flying public. But hey you enjoy that ice cream up in first class for your two hour flight.

The seats on Delta will be an inch wider, and significantly more comfortable. With lounge access in MSP, the extra cost for Delta in economy is easily justified just on the hard product.

 

[JDean3204]

At least Southwest doesn't rely on outsourced regional feed to keep their costs down and contribute to the regional suck. Not sure if that is smart or not, but something I've always liked about them.

 

[wheelsup]

A main cabin seat to ATL from GEG two weeks from now is $450 on Delta and $250 on SW. So assigned seating is the only thing different from the two operators. Both have in-flight entertainment BOTH have PROFESSIONAL flight attendants (IE they both had the same FAA required training) just one group is more customer friendly than the other. Main cabin seats are roughly the same size.

Less than 10% of the Delta market flies first class. That 10% (and that is being generous) isn't going to make up the difference in pilot salaries we are talking about.

So yes I am still not seeing a difference for 90% of the flying public. But hey you enjoy that ice cream up in first class for your two hour flight.

The highest margin carrier in the US is Spirit. Incidentally they grew around 15% last year and will grow 20% this year.

All coach...

 

[Beep]

Semi related, but I've had two good friends get hired at Legacy Airlines as of late. Both were willing to quit their cushy corporate job, went in to quit, both walked out with 100k+ increase in overall pay.

The good companies will survive, and as ATN said, pilot wages are a drop in the bucket in the overall picture.

Oh no, please tell me they didn’t pass up the new jobs!

 

[NickH]

And oops, I checked.

Cheapest one-way GEG-ATL on Delta on 1/16 is $207, connecting through SLC. Cheapest on SWA is $207 connecting through DEN.

So the same price on Delta gets you a better seat and better service.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

At least Southwest doesn't rely on outsourced regional feed to keep their costs down and contribute to the regional suck. Not sure if that is smart or not, but something I've always liked about them.

That outsourced regional feed is how the legacy carriers provide more domestic destinations and how they feed a large international network. Southworst serves 100 cities. Delta serves 325. Want to fly to Akron? Delta will take you there. Southworst will tell you to fly to Cleveland instead. Because screw you, cattle!

 

[JDean3204]

That outsourced regional feed is how the legacy carriers provide more domestic destinations and how they feed a large international network. Southworst serves 100 cities. Delta serves 325. Want to fly to Akron? Delta will take you there. Southworst will tell you to fly to Cleveland instead. Because screw you, cattle!

Delta will say, want to go to Akron? Cool, we paint these smaller planes in our color and trick you into thinking you're flying us to to Akron. Little do you know the FO is paid less than the bus driver that brought you to the terminal and the Captain just upgraded after one year and it's his second winter storm season...ever! This is their apprenticeship to one day maybe fly you on our bigger airplanes with the same paint on the side, let's see how they do! Welcome aboard

Plus doesn't Delta mostly code share its international route system anymore? Seems like they could get pinched from both ends during a recession while corndog on a stick will still be selling those cheap seats at a rapid rate because robots are taking everyone's jobs and the end of the world is near... (that was for @Yakob )

Both sides of the argument have valid points I think.

 

[av8tr1]

Nice anecdote. In reality, Southwest is priced about the same as the other major carriers. Many times Delta is priced below Southworst.

I literally pick the same flight from the same airport as I wrote my response. GEG to ATL on Jan 17th - Jan 21st. SW was nearly 1/2 the cost of the big D. But you offer no example to dispute. But ok the same flight SEA to ATL on the 17th is $186 for SW and $397 for Delta. From PDX SW is $204 Delta is $577. Empirical Data is a wonderful thing. Show me where Delta beats SW on price. That $200 ($800 total) difference for a family of 4 on a single parent average salary of 70K with 2 toddlers in tow is nearly all the beer and pizza money the family can afford.

Actually, I listed multiple differences. Nice cherry-pick, though. It is a big difference all by itself.

Cherry pick????? WTH I literally listed everything you did. You listed and I am quoting here "Assigned seating. In-flight entertainment. Flight attendants who are professionals instead of (bad) amateur comedians and singers. Airplanes bigger than a tuna can going to the west coast.

Oop! You're right! I forgot one single item you mentioned, the tuna can. Delta uses the same aircraft in the continental routes the 737-700/800 103 feet long. The airbus A320 is 102 feet long. I can continue on and get into seat sizes but this is typical misdirection. You're good at that Todd. You missed your calling, you should have been a lawyer. So what else in your list did I miss?

Uh, no, they don't. In fact, those trailer-park rednecks pulled the SiriusXM radios out of our AirTran birds the second they showed up. They were too cheap to keep it maintained. Same reason they don't have autoland on their 737s.

Well I watched a lot of movies and TV flying back and forth to Houston 2x a month last year. Wonder where all that entertainment was coming from.

We clearly have very different definitions of professionalism.

Yep we sure do. I am a nasty unshaven nonunion FedEx pilot flying a single engine single pilot into icing and all sorts of bad weather, all by myself......You are? No longer a pilot?

Agreed, the widget definitely has Southworst beat in that department. I enjoy not being treated like self-loading cattle.

Apparently you don't realize that domestic coach seats are mostly loss-leaders. Always have been.

[/QUOTE]

Here I just don't know what to say. You're so out of touch with reality to say that 90% of industry seats are "loss-leaders" is so staggeringly ridiculous I am not sure you could even pass a drug test these days. I have to wonder what business experience you have to say something so unintelligent.