FAA Considers Canceling Certain Circling Procedures

[RDoug]

FAA Considers Canceling Certain Circling Procedures

"The agency said, “As new technology facilitates the introduction of area navigation instrument approach procedures over the past decade, the number of procedures available in the National Airspace System has nearly doubled. The complexity and cost to the FAA of maintaining these procedures while expanding new RNAVprocedures is not sustainable.” There are approximately 12,000 instrument approach procedures in the U.S. and nearly 10,600 circling lines of minimums."​

 

[Itchy]

Good. I don't know the statistics on wrecks due to circling, it is actually one of the least used instrument procedures as far as I can tell. (Well NDB approaches win that) But I do know when I was a check airman, circling was the biggest heartache.

 

[deadstick]

“You bust. You were 1.75 miles from the runway.” They need to paint a big perimeter boundary in neon yellow.

 

[Itchy]

“You bust. You were 1.75 miles from the runway.” They need to paint a big perimeter boundary in neon yellow.

Or something on the altimeter that beeps if you go below mins. Wait. Perhaps if they printed a picture of the airport so you could see what it might look like when you went visual. Wait. Or something that let you know your bank angle. Or speed......

 

[NovemberEcho]

Good. I don't know the statistics on wrecks due to circling, it is actually one of the least used instrument procedures as far as I can tell. (Well NDB approaches win that) But I do know when I was a check airman, circling was the biggest heartache.

Depends on the airport. There are 2 i worked where circling is very common, and one of them it was probably the majority instrument approach due to conflicting with departures off of Tyndall.

 

[Cptnchia]

Or something on the altimeter that beeps if you go below mins. Wait. Perhaps if they printed a picture of the airport so you could see what it might look like when you went visual. Wait. Or something that let you know your bank angle. Or speed......

“We’re pilots. We aren’t trained to use airmanship skills. All we were taught to do was follow the magenta line.”

 

[gotWXdagain]

What would this do for circling-only procedures?

 

[Nark]

I can think of a few airports around my neck of the woods, that are circling only.

Are we going to legislate pilot decisions out of the cockpit?

 

[Roger Roger]

Good. I don't know the statistics on wrecks due to circling, it is actually one of the least used instrument procedures as far as I can tell. (Well NDB approaches win that) But I do know when I was a check airman, circling was the biggest heartache.

Yeah, a no-kidding circle at ceiling and vis mins is a definite wake up and pay attention moment. But I feel that just canceling procedures that give you an option of a more efficient transition to the airport (let's say the winds favor 11, but you're coming from the south and the ceiling and vis are VFR and you just need to punch down through the layer) is throwing the baby out with the bath water.

 

[bp]

I imagine this is just to free up the flight check resources? Prob not a bad idea to have more straight in RNAVs instead of wasting time checking circling mins for 4 different runways

 

[wheelsup]

I imagine this is just to free up the flight check resources? Prob not a bad idea to have more straight in RNAVs instead of wasting time checking circling mins for 4 different runways

Yeah I agree, I’d much rather have RNAV with lower mins. Hopefully we will rid the system of all non precision approaches in the future. While they’re at it get rid of all VORs and NDBs. Good riddance.

 

[wheelsup]

Yeah, a no-kidding circle at ceiling and vis mins is a definite wake up and pay attention moment. But I feel that just canceling procedures that give you an option of a more efficient transition to the airport (let's say the winds favor 11, but you're coming from the south and the ceiling and vis are VFR and you just need to punch down through the layer) is throwing the baby out with the bath water.

RNAV RNP approaches will make circling obsolete.

 

[deadstick]

Or something on the altimeter that beeps if you go below mins. Wait. Perhaps if they printed a picture of the airport so you could see what it might look like when you went visual. Wait. Or something that let you know your bank angle. Or speed......

Wow. I’m impressed. When your on a downwind circling, you can spot the difference between 1.7 and 1.75 miles.

Heck, last I heard most people screw up a circling approach because they’re too close and overshoot final.

 

[gotWXdagain]

RNAV RNP approaches will make circling obsolete.

Until Joe Skylane pilot has the avionics box capable of doing those procedures though, is it really a good idea to straight up eliminate them? This could end up compelling those guys into the old Alaska dumpster IFR "procedures."

 

[wheelsup]

Until Joe Skylane pilot has the avionics box capable of doing those procedures though, is it really a good idea to straight up eliminate them? This could end up compelling those guys into the old Alaska dumpster IFR "procedures."

Who cares GPS approaches have been out 20 years, at some point you need to join the current century. If you can buy an airplane you can buy an inexpensive used GPS box. The FAA will give a decade of lead time like always.

At some point we really need to do a cost benefit analysis of our government and spending millions maintaining approaches very few do is just nuts.

 

[gotWXdagain]

Who cares GPS approaches have been out 20 years, at some point you need to join the current century. If you can buy an airplane you can buy an inexpensive used GPS box. The FAA will give a decade of lead time like always.

At some point we really need to do a cost benefit analysis of our government and spending millions maintaining approaches very few do is just nuts.

And how many G650/750 combos are certified for those whizbang RNP approaches?

 

[Roger Roger]

RNAV RNP approaches will make circling obsolete.

You didn't read my post. Circling approach saves 30+ miles of flying past the airport at a lot of places we go. All of which matters in a one-in one-out IFR environment. And then there's airports where terrain only allows an approach from one direction, but prevailing winds favor a different runway.

 

[NovemberEcho]

They didn't say they're eliminating ALL circling approaches

 

[Richman]

Yeah I agree, I’d much rather have RNAV with lower mins. Hopefully we will rid the system of all non precision approaches in the future. While they’re at it get rid of all VORs and NDBs. Good riddance.

And if the GPS, or some part of it, goes TU?

They canned Loran. Whatcha got left?

Even if you lose just the WAAS portion, that wrecks your LPV mins.

 

[z987k]

And how many G650/750 combos are certified for those whizbang RNP approaches?

I think they all are now. At least the RNP 1 stuff. The 650/750 can do radius to fix since 2015 I think.

That said a stand alone GTN 650 install is over $10k. A significant portion of the value of the whole airplane for a lot of people. Not economical yet imo.