Airborne Hiring

Avgirl said:
Why is it bad that Jeppesen has their own services they provide? Some companies aren't big enough to justify having their own OCC, right?
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My first dispatch gig we had 5 airplanes, 4 dispatchers on 12 hour shifts (4 on 4 off and suppe,entail so). We were busy all the time. Even in days that were slow fly we did a lot of research and marketing work and "admin" duties. So how small would justify a lack of OCC?

Personally I'm against th contract dispatch. But I'm a control freak.
 
McCrosky said:
My first dispatch gig we had 5 airplanes, 4 dispatchers on 12 hour shifts (4 on 4 off and suppe,entail so). We were busy all the time. Even in days that were slow fly we did a lot of research and marketing work and "admin" duties. So how small would justify a lack of OCC?

Personally I'm against th contract dispatch. But I'm a control freak.
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It depends on the operation. We have already noticed many examples between everyone here as to how different responsibilities are. More incentive to do everything possible to provide the level of service that contractors can never get close to. So, that our jobs or future jobs are never questioned.
 
Avgirl said:
Why is it bad that Jeppesen has their own services they provide? Some companies aren't big enough to justify having their own OCC, right?
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It's really too long of a discussion to have in a single post, but under FAA regs, Part 121 carriers (even small ones) are not allowed to contract out their dispatch offices. It is an option for 121 supplemental carriers although most of them have it in house also. Jeppesen lobbied very hard to change those regulations, but their last two attempts to do so were both unsuccessful. (They do provide flight planning services for some foreign airlines, which have different regulations on contract dispatch than the FAA does.) Every US airline operating under 121 regs has had to provide their own flight planning/dispatch services going back many decades and it doesn't appear to have been a barrier from new airlines starting up operations.
 
Please be careful in your terms. There are 3 types of Operations under Part 121, Domestic, Flag and Supplemental Operations. Flag and Domestic Carrriers are required to have dispatchers as company employees This is not required of Supplemental Operators, but most of them do. ABX would appear to be an exception. Western Global Airlines has a separate company that provides Dispatch/Flight Following. Asia Pacific Airlines also uses contract disaptch.
 
Manniax I am curious as to why you disagree with the contract dispatch stuff? Nothing is wrong with it it is just different. Once you have done it it is actually quite easy and really no different than any other flight following service. I work for both airlines not just one. I do the same things for both airlines. It is new to the FAA but anything new to them is wrong lol. Just curious as to your thoughts on this.

You have brought up a very good discussion. I would like to see what other peoples opinions are on it at some point. GFS is actually the first to explore this particular field. The company is learning as we go. So it is all new for everyone.
 
DAB said:
Clrd2land and Jaydog...great information. I appreciate the information immensely! Wasn't sure if we had anyone on here from GFS, and I guess we do!! Always good to get some insider input! Grew up in the Dayton area, so ABX has always had my attention. Thanks again all.
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DAB I am on here quite a bit just checking things out and posting when I have time. :)
 
dxBrian said:
Please be careful in your terms. There are 3 types of Operations under Part 121, Domestic, Flag and Supplemental Operations. Flag and Domestic Carrriers are required to have dispatchers as company employees This is not required of Supplemental Operators, but most of them do. ABX would appear to be an exception. Western Global Airlines has a separate company that provides Dispatch/Flight Following. Asia Pacific Airlines also uses contract disaptch.
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dxBrian is correct. GFS is a part 121 supplemental and we are not dispatchers. We are flight followers. There is a huge difference. As a Part 121 supp we have a bit more flexibility in how we operate than the 121 Domestic/Flag operations do. The only drawback to what we do is that the FAA scrutinizes the operation a bit more. Because it is new to the FAA they fought long and hard to try and stop it. But GFS continued to prove to them that it was legal, safe and that there really wasn't anything that the FAA could do to shut it down. So the FAA approved the contract work for us with stipulations of course. However the rules set in place aren't bad and as we continue to work under the rules they actually make sense.

Here is how we work on any given day. When we dispatch we dispatch the two airlines separately. We have a dispatcher(s) for ATI and we have dispatcher(s) for ABX. This way the dispatchers are focused on one airline. It has really made sense because if a dispatcher had to work both airlines at the same time it can get really confusing. We have to know both airlines policies, rules, operating procedures, etc. We have 2 recurrents and 2 comp checks. We are subject to both airlines drug and alcohol programs.

Again we aren't dispatchers but flight followers first and foremost. I know that in GFS that term gets used quite a bit and quite frankly needs to change. I think what happens is that all of us have come from a Part 121 Domestic/Flag so the term is ingrained into our memories and dialog. Old habits die hard but I am working to change my lingo.
 
Avgirl said:
It depends on the operation. We have already noticed many examples between everyone here as to how different responsibilities are. More incentive to do everything possible to provide the level of service that contractors can never get close to. So, that our jobs or future jobs are never questioned.
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Avgirl you bring up an excellent point. One thing about working for a supplement is that technically my ticket isn't on the line like you have in the 121 Domestic/Flag operations. And the reason that I say technically is that our FSDO in Detroit still scrutinizes our tickets and makes sure that we have one. While I know that some FSDOs don't ours does. So if I mess up they could pull my ticket. Just saying. It's not regs and it isn't right but it is what it is. Also even though the DO has operational control and is responsible for the operation of the airline if I messup I can lose my job. So I have that to worry about as well.

Sure we can say it is different but not by very much. I get fired from this job because of a mistake (even a small one) no one will hire me in any other carrier. I know the same would go for the 121 Domestic/Flag.

I say all that to say this. While we as flight followers may have some different rules and regulations at the end of the day I am still responsible to make good decisions and to make sure the flight delegated to me by the DO is planned and operated safely. But I think that it is safe to say that we all want to make sure that everything we do is safely done.
 
McCrosky said:
My first dispatch gig we had 5 airplanes, 4 dispatchers on 12 hour shifts (4 on 4 off and suppe,entail so). We were busy all the time. Even in days that were slow fly we did a lot of research and marketing work and "admin" duties. So how small would justify a lack of OCC?

Personally I'm against th contract dispatch. But I'm a control freak.
Click to expand...

Quite honestly I find it a whole lot easier to work here than in the 121 Domestic/Flag business. Actually I would rather work here than in that business. Here's why. Were I work I am allowed to actually make decisions without feeling pressured to something else. Also I love the fact that I don't have to follow the 1-2-3 rule anymore. We put an alternate on every flight. Also the fact that I'm not extremely busy most days is awesome. I can study, read, do homework for school, etc is awesome. I have maybe a total of 13 flights a day (most domestic) and it is very manageable. I do have some control but I am glad that ultimately the responsibility rests on the DO and the Captain. Sure is there a possibility that if I screw up I could lose my job? Sure there is. But that goes for just about anyone so no worries there.

I'm just curious as to why you are against the contract dispatch or flight following? There isn't anything wrong with it. It is just different. Just curious :)
 
jaydog said:
Avgirl you bring up an excellent point. One thing about working for a supplement is that technically my ticket isn't on the line like you have in the 121 Domestic/Flag operations. And the reason that I say technically is that our FSDO in Detroit still scrutinizes our tickets and makes sure that we have one. While I know that some FSDOs don't ours does. So if I mess up they could pull my ticket. Just saying. It's not regs and it isn't right but it is what it is. Also even though the DO has operational control and is responsible for the operation of the airline if I messup I can lose my job. So I have that to worry about as well.

Sure we can say it is different but not by very much. I get fired from this job because of a mistake (even a small one) no one will hire me in any other carrier. I know the same would go for the 121 Domestic/Flag.

I say all that to say this. While we as flight followers may have some different rules and regulations at the end of the day I am still responsible to make good decisions and to make sure the flight delegated to me by the DO is planned and operated safely. But I think that it is safe to say that we all want to make sure that everything we do is safely done.
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So, why do you not have a dispatcher title? Is it because you can't technically have that title based on the nature of the work, or do you think it is another way for those paying for the services to not pay as much as I assume that a dispatcher would have a higher salary in general? Sorry for all the questions, I am new to all of this and trying to better understand how things work from place to place. It sounds like it would be an interesting operation.
 
jaydog said:
Manniax I am curious as to why you disagree with the contract dispatch stuff? Nothing is wrong with it it is just different. Once you have done it it is actually quite easy and really no different than any other flight following service. I work for both airlines not just one. I do the same things for both airlines. It is new to the FAA but anything new to them is wrong lol. Just curious as to your thoughts on this.

You have brought up a very good discussion. I would like to see what other peoples opinions are on it at some point. GFS is actually the first to explore this particular field. The company is learning as we go. So it is all new for everyone.
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I have never worked in supplemental ops so, keeping in mind this is from a 121 domestic/flag point of view...right now for regular part 121 (flag/domestic) the joint authority is shared between the PIC and the dispatcher. If the company was able to contract out the dispatcher job to a third party, that contract employee might be put under pressure to release a flight he didn't feel was safe to operate by his employer, who didn't want to risk losing the contract. As you've mentioned, under supplemental rules, you don't directly operational control of the flight with the captain...it's delegated to you on behalf of the director of operations. This is a very brief discussion of the issues involved, but basically, I do not want the "sharing operational control of the flight with the captain" part of my job removed, I think it would decrease the level of safety provided.
 
dxBrian said:
Please be careful in your terms. There are 3 types of Operations under Part 121, Domestic, Flag and Supplemental Operations. Flag and Domestic Carrriers are required to have dispatchers as company employees This is not required of Supplemental Operators, but most of them do. ABX would appear to be an exception. Western Global Airlines has a separate company that provides Dispatch/Flight Following. Asia Pacific Airlines also uses contract disaptch.
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In regards to WGA, the company, Global Ops Center, is under the same umbrella as the airline and owned by the same owner. It's not the traditional "contract dispatch" as one would think of contract dispatch.
 
womanpilot73 said:
In regards to WGA, the company, Global Ops Center, is under the same umbrella as the airline and owned by the same owner. It's not the traditional "contract dispatch" as one would think of contract dispatch.
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I understand that, but I believe it was set up that way, as a subsidiary, with the express purpose of being able to provide dispatch services for other airlines as well as for Airborne. Had the reg change desired by Jeppesen gone through, they probably would have been able to provide them for domestic/flag carriers as well.
 
manniax said:
I understand that, but I believe it was set up that way, as a subsidiary, with the express purpose of being able to provide dispatch services for other airlines as well as for Airborne. Had the reg change desired by Jeppesen gone through, they probably would have been able to provide them for domestic/flag carriers as well.
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Initially it was an idea to do that but as you can see, that never happened. :D
 
manniax said:
I understand that, but I believe it was set up that way, as a subsidiary, with the express purpose of being able to provide dispatch services for other airlines as well as for Airborne. Had the reg change desired by Jeppesen gone through, they probably would have been able to provide them for domestic/flag carriers as well.
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And actually, we were supposed to dispatch for the sister company, NGA, but they decided to shut that one down and bring the aircraft to WGA.
 
Avgirl said:
So, why do you not have a dispatcher title? Is it because you can't technically have that title based on the nature of the work, or do you think it is another way for those paying for the services to not pay as much as I assume that a dispatcher would have a higher salary in general? Sorry for all the questions, I am new to all of this and trying to better understand how things work from place to place. It sounds like it would be an interesting operation.
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We aren't dispatchers because we don't have operational control. The DO and the pilot have operational control. We are just flight followers and basically work the paperwork up for the crew and then follow the flights progress until it is on the ground. What we do is similar to dispatchers but because of the operational control difference it makes it different. Also in our position we technically don't need a license. However my job requires us to have one and it does say that we have at least a year or more worth of experience in the field.
 
manniax said:
I have never worked in supplemental ops so, keeping in mind this is from a 121 domestic/flag point of view...right now for regular part 121 (flag/domestic) the joint authority is shared between the PIC and the dispatcher. If the company was able to contract out the dispatcher job to a third party, that contract employee might be put under pressure to release a flight he didn't feel was safe to operate by his employer, who didn't want to risk losing the contract. As you've mentioned, under supplemental rules, you don't directly operational control of the flight with the captain...it's delegated to you on behalf of the director of operations. This is a very brief discussion of the issues involved, but basically, I do not want the "sharing operational control of the flight with the captain" part of my job removed, I think it would decrease the level of safety provided.
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Manniax point well taken. In all honesty we treat out positions here at GFS as though we are dispatching a part 121 domestic/flag operations. So while the DO has the operational control he delegates that responsibility to us. It's a really strange setup but if you saw our operation it would make more sense.
 
jaydog said:
Quite honestly I find it a whole lot easier to work here than in the 121 Domestic/Flag business. Actually I would rather work here than in that business. Here's why. Were I work I am allowed to actually make decisions without feeling pressured to something else. Also I love the fact that I don't have to follow the 1-2-3 rule anymore. We put an alternate on every flight. Also the fact that I'm not extremely busy most days is awesome. I can study, read, do homework for school, etc is awesome. I have maybe a total of 13 flights a day (most domestic) and it is very manageable. I do have some control but I am glad that ultimately the responsibility rests on the DO and the Captain. Sure is there a possibility that if I screw up I could lose my job? Sure there is. But that goes for just about anyone so no worries there.

I'm just curious as to why you are against the contract dispatch or flight following? There isn't anything wrong with it. It is just different. Just curious :)
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manniax said:
I have never worked in supplemental ops so, keeping in mind this is from a 121 domestic/flag point of view...right now for regular part 121 (flag/domestic) the joint authority is shared between the PIC and the dispatcher. If the company was able to contract out the dispatcher job to a third party, that contract employee might be put under pressure to release a flight he didn't feel was safe to operate by his employer, who didn't want to risk losing the contract. As you've mentioned, under supplemental rules, you don't directly operational control of the flight with the captain...it's delegated to you on behalf of the director of operations. This is a very brief discussion of the issues involved, but basically, I do not want the "sharing operational control of the flight with the captain" part of my job removed, I think it would decrease the level of safety provided.
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This. There's also other issues I see need to be overcome. I for instance have a hard time keeping up with one airlines manuals, policies, Op Specs, and other changes. Combining multiple carriers policies and procedures seems like a recipe for a violation.. Every carrier I've worked for has had different procedures for addressing the same issues. SO, either you need to have your contract personnel on one certificate (customer) or risk the DO's job and airlines certificate. I don't think a contractor would be as likely to say "NO!" when pushed. I relate it to former carriers who use lowest bidder for contract maintenance, and almost never had a plane come out of a heavy check in better shape than it went in. There was no "skin in the game" for them.

jaydog said:
Manniax point well taken. In all honesty we treat out positions here at GFS as though we are dispatching a part 121 domestic/flag operations. So while the DO has the operational control he delegates that responsibility to us. It's a really strange setup but if you saw our operation it would make more sense.
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You say you are dispatching to a domestic/flag standard, but then laud how much other stuff you can do at work and not have responsibility for what decisions you make. This may come off as an insult, but I don't want that attitude in the person planning the flight my mother is on. I have more freedom at a full 121 domestic/flag carrier that I did at a supplemental carrier. If i want an alternate, i put one on. 1-2-3 (or in our case 1-1-2) rule be damned. But I have a reason for it. That was the toughest change going from a supplemental world to a domestic/flag. it felt weird at first, but the more i did it, the more liked it...:-). Now, it's weather I don't have to monitor or Notams I don't have to read. That is a definite plus with over 30 flights working at a time.

Like i said, I'm an control freak and a little OCD. I like the operational control aspect. I like taking the responsibility of my decisions and standing behind them when questioned. I make mistakes, and learn.

And lastly, keep in mind that at a supplemental operation, you make be shifting the responsibility to the DO, but you are still exercising the rights and privileges of your FAA certificate. The FAA can (and will.. seen it) take certificate action against you if they feel a situation warrants it.

Tha'ts my $.02
 
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