Networking and You

Eh, whoever it was knows that this thread is about them. They also know that they haven't been named and that the uh Polity At Large is working to resolve it. I think the part the rest of us play in it is: The Audience. Like standing in for the REAL Audience. You don't want to meet the REAL Audience. And with any luck, whoever committed the no-no won't. It's still valuable advice for the rest of us, even if that wasn't 100% the point of the post. To wit, what, something like "be the guy you seem to be because it's not just you, anymore". The networking sword cuts both ways. I try to remain conscious of that, and I'll go ahead and assert that you should, too. *shrug*
 
OR OR OR.....

We stop talking in generalities, euphemisms and idle threats. What does "you do not want to meet the real audience" mean!? I mean is this a trolling thread? Because mission accomplished...

Names don't have to be named, but it would be nice to read what really happened instead of soft hint after soft hint to an overly general situation involving a plethora of possible issues.
 
I disagree about standing in the shadow of my "recommender."

Arguably, 2 years is enough to make a name for yourself.
If you burn a bridge before the ~2 years (ish) mark, you make whomever recommended you look like a dick.
After that, it's on you.

Putting your name on an applicant is significantly different at a ~15 pilot operation, than a 15,000 one.
 
It also depends on the definition of burning a bridge. I had a good buddy tell me he would guarantee me an interview at Virgin, but that I could never leave. Virgin is a great company but it is not my career goal. How could I possibly make that promise if I didn't intend to keep it? More so, how could he possibly expect me to make a promise like that? So in 17 years I leave an I am dick who burned a bridge?
 
I used to be very generous with writing letters of recommendation to my various employers over the years. Not too long ago I wrote yet another letter for someone who ended up advancing in the interview process... Long story short... They flipped the "Le •" switch before interviewing; trashing the interviewing company, their current company, and oddly enough me. My current company takes recommendations very very seriously. It didn't take more than one "WTH?' type phone call for me to re-evaluate my recommendation letter policy. Nowadays I'm pretty stingy with LORs... But I'll still help coach folks through the process if they want to join my outfit.
 
If you work for a second-tier carrier can you really be upset with someone if they leave for a better job? I mean as long as they give appropriate notice and don't just split. I'd think at a place like atlas where the guys are battling with management to get a fair contract situations like this only serve as more ammunition. "Hey mr. Manager, don't be mad at me because he left. Make this place a worthwhile place to be and we wouldn't have this problem. "
 
amorris311 said:
I agree that there is a teachable moment but starting threads like this doesn't help. I understand that there might be frustration and embarrassment but not saying anything of meaning does not help and leads minds to speculate.
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I didn't start it AND I used a situation non-specific to the particular scenario being discussed.

I'm basically hawking FUBU-brand shirts to people waiting in line for Country Thunder.
 
learhawkerbe400 said:
If you work for a second-tier carrier can you really be upset with someone if they leave for a better job? I mean as long as they give appropriate notice and don't just split. I'd think at a place like atlas where the guys are battling with management to get a fair contract situations like this only serve as more ammunition. "Hey mr. Manager, don't be mad at me because he left. Make this place a worthwhile place to be and we wouldn't have this problem. "
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I think it depends. If you're at Atlas and you're working on making it a better place and you don't want the place to be a revolving door, maybe it's worth asking somebody you'll go to bat for what their long term plans are? Hopefully they understand.
 
learhawkerbe400 said:
If you work for a second-tier carrier can you really be upset with someone if they leave for a better job? I mean as long as they give appropriate notice and don't just split. I'd think at a place like atlas where the guys are battling with management to get a fair contract situations like this only serve as more ammunition. "Hey mr. Manager, don't be mad at me because he left. Make this place a worthwhile place to be and we wouldn't have this problem. "
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It depends in what terms you leave on and how big of a wake you leave behind I'm guessing.

Some people flip the switch so quickly on the situation. They practically beg for help when trying to obtain the job and then they crap on everything and everyone once they get the job.

Although they knew that the job was second tier while they were begging for the opportunity to work there and were clearly briefed on the type of opration and flying, they'd just be unpleasant to everyone they encounter. They're reputation get's back to the people doing the hiring and they are looking at the recommended with the "wtf" face.
 
Baronman said:
I think it depends. If you're at Atlas and you're working on making it a better place and you don't want the place to be a revolving door, maybe it's worth asking somebody you'll go to bat for what their long term plans are? Hopefully they understand.
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So people make Atlas a career, while others bail and give two middle fingers. Everyone has different views career jobs differently. So how can I be held responsible for recommending somebody that came to the job, did the best they could, gave notice in compliance with company policy, and left because they decided that the job wasn't for him/her?

Don't be a dick, be a good employee and leave on good terms if you don't like a job, but holding anyone who takes an internal rec to unfair rules and made up policy is just wrong. It sounds like the OP had issues with he person doing something wrong but if he only thing was that they left the job because they didn't like it, give me a break...
 
learhawkerbe400 said:
If you work for a second-tier carrier can you really be upset with someone if they leave for a better job? I mean as long as they give appropriate notice and don't just split. I'd think at a place like atlas where the guys are battling with management to get a fair contract situations like this only serve as more ammunition. "Hey mr. Manager, don't be mad at me because he left. Make this place a worthwhile place to be and we wouldn't have this problem. "
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It depends on the level of "help" offered. I expect less from someone that I mention in passing to a recruiter than I do from someone that I personally walk in to the Director in charge of hiring and write a letter for.

Keep this in mind. If I "go all in" for a candidate and they leave my company for a legacy within 2 years, I can't "go all in" for anyone else. I understand if someone has to go. Life happens. But the guys who want to want a career here get a bigger helping hand from me than a guy who ultimately wants to work for a legacy. That is how it works.
 
PhilosopherPilot said:
It depends on the level of "help" offered. I expect less from someone that I mention in passing to a recruiter than I do from someone that I personally walk in to the Director in charge of hiring and write a letter for.

Keep this in mind. If I "go all in" for a candidate and they leave my company for a legacy within 2 years, I can't "go all in" for anyone else. I understand if someone has to go. Life happens. But the guys who want to want a career here get a bigger helping hand from me than a guy who ultimately wants to work for a legacy. That is how it works.
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Completely understand and I'm sure we have all been "burned" one time or another. This happened to me once and I felt embarrassed and flew to our HQ on a day off to personally apologize to the lead hiring woman. While it was bad I was still able to help a lot of people get a look but I was much more reserved as a result.
 
Inverted said:
It also depends on the definition of burning a bridge. I had a good buddy tell me he would guarantee me an interview at Virgin, but that I could never leave. Virgin is a great company but it is not my career goal. How could I possibly make that promise if I didn't intend to keep it? More so, how could he possibly expect me to make a promise like that? So in 17 years I leave an I am dick who burned a bridge?
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I understand, just so you know though we've had these exact issues where a recommendation is given and then the guy leaves in less than 12 months. Then we get a politegram that we should really know well the people we are recommending. I agree if you leave way down the road, that won't really garner attention to the original recommendor. But leave less than 12 months, you can bet your rear end it comes to the recommendor. I think 3 years at minimum might be okay. Stick around at least that long, if not 5 before bailing on the company you were recommended to.
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
I understand, just so you know though we've had these exact issues where a recommendation is given and then the guy leaves in less than 12 months. Then we get a politegram that we should really know well the people we are recommending. I agree if you leave way down the road, that won't really garner attention to the original recommendor. But leave less than 12 months, you can bet your rear end it comes to the recommender. I think 3 years at minimum might be okay. Stick around at least that long, if not 5 before bailing on the company you were recommended to.
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What if it turns out that I hate the company? What if I am being treated poorly, or unfairly targeted? Putting timeframe minimums on anything over an initial commitment to the company is a dicey road. I think everyone and anyone would agree that giving a company 12 months is just good taste. Leaving before that is bad taste, but if your dream job calls, what are you gonna do? Put off a seniority number for 5 years or potentially forever because you want to make good on an arbitrary timeframe placed on the person being recommended? 5 years to you might be 10 years to somebody else, and at the end of the day, you shouldn't be faulting the recommender for somebody leaving after a few years. I am really not trying to talk smack, both places like Atlas and Virgin (especially now) are good companies that have lots to offer an employee, but are we to make believe that these companies don't pay considerably less to fly the same equipment as others, among other benefits? Can we really fault somebody leaving in this economy to greener grasses?

I will say it again, if you bail after your third sim with no notice what so ever that is very inconsiderate and it would probably change my friendship with that person, because that isn't how I would behave. But back to my original issue with this thread, it is so cryptic that we don't even know what happened, and we have to speculate.
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
I understand, just so you know though we've had these exact issues where a recommendation is given and then the guy leaves in less than 12 months. Then we get a politegram that we should really know well the people we are recommending. I agree if you leave way down the road, that won't really garner attention to the original recommendor. But leave less than 12 months, you can bet your rear end it comes to the recommendor. I think 3 years at minimum might be okay.
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In the rest of the employment world (at least in the US), 6 months is as long as anyone is expected to stay at a job. Kind of unique that pilots feel this extended loyalty -- that since they were hired, they have some type of obligation to not leave. The company has zero such scruples, they will happily lay you off after 3 months if business dries up, or furlough you, or replace you with someone that costs less if they can.

As much as all of you detest training bonds or contracts, companies that put guilt on those recommending applicants are doing a similar thing. The person doing the recommending is doing the company a service - finding them a well qualified employee, for free. They could pay a recruiter (who customarily takes 3 months salary as their commission), but internal recommendations are much cheaper. The recruiter typically gets paid if the applicant makes it 90 days, or even just gets paid upfront. The recruiter also could care less if an employee leaves in a year - more business for them...

Outside of the airplane world, you usually get paid a few grand for recommending someone that gets hired. Not just because it saves the company money, but because the quality of referrals also tend to be higher.
 
A future Grandpa held by his own more than a half century ago. The long forgotten moment caught on yellowed film, just one of uncounted many, helped make the man I became, for better or worse. The child today is the age of his pictured grandfather; the grandfather lives only in distant memory. His touch helped build a life, though, and his heart beats in mine, after a fashion.

I think more of those things now, as the decades quickly pass; and you will, too, one day, I think. The legacy of touch, the spoken word, the mentored spirit, is what lives long after the body dies; so does the broken heart and bitterness of trust betrayed. The things we do, the life we live, the choices we make, affect more than we can ever measure.

The people in your life matter, even on the job, and especially if they tried to make a difference in yours. It's not a thing to be discarded lightly to me, tho' your mileage may certainly vary.
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amorris311 said:
Completely understand and I'm sure we have all been "burned" one time or another. This happened to me once and I felt embarrassed and flew to our HQ on a day off to personally apologize to the lead hiring woman. While it was bad I was still able to help a lot of people get a look but I was much more reserved as a result.
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She was really mad at you too.
 
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