Reverse vs brakes

Dan208B said:
There seem to be a lot of people assuming someone is dumb because they do one or the other. But I think it's important to point out that many companies have an SOP requiring one or the other. One shop I worked at required full reverse every landing no matter what. Another shop required idle reverse every landing unless there was concern that you would need more. And another shop said if breaking action was less than good and runway less than 7000ft, you had to use MAX autobrakes which is pretty darn abrupt in a 737. So for a lot of pilots flying for a lot of places, we are doing whatever we are asked to, whether or not everyone agrees with it. And if you fly a business jet with no SOP I'm silently judging your every operational choice.
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You've worked at too many shops.
 
Cptnchia said:
Let me rephrase. Haven't done a whole lotta flying to Europe, Asia, South America or Africa? Canada, Mexico and the Caribbean is what SWA calls "near international." Doesn't really count. Especially Canada.

And seriously, you really want to do the whole transoceanic measuring contest? Oh, @Derg wanna set this fool straight?
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First, you are the one who seems to be insecure and want to get into a measuring contest.

Secondly, the fact of the matter is, as stated, if you depart the paved surface of the runway if you don't use brakes but use reverse you will be asked why didn't you use brakes as well as your reverse. If you don't use reverse but use brakes you will be asked why didn't you use reverse with your brakes. Do you really think the French or Italians are going to care if you run off the runway and hurt people about a local noise abatement procedure?

Thirdly, yes, there are local procedures that do need to be considered, but see point two.

Fourthly, I asked some pilots at your place about their reverse and braking procedures they have in an airplane I am familiar with compared to my place. Guess what?!?!?! Our SOPs are practically the same! So, the measuring contest you want to get me in makes zero sense as the SOPs are the same.

Finally, look at the TSA incidents in Canada. From my understanding, guess what they were missing from the airplane, but guess who got blamed?
 
Like @Dan208B it depends on the carrier. I have worked several places and most of the time Reverse was cheaper brakes. Another reason for the go light on the brakes when able was because of turn times. Most planes do not have brake fans like the bus. Hot Brakes = longer turn times. In the 727 hot brakes was a 45 minute minimum turn. It also depends on the agreements the carrier has in place with vendors. At another carrier they preferred heavy breaking over reverse because of the engine agreement and replacing brakes was cheaper for them.

No right or wrong both are acceptable and it all depends on the carrier the prefers
 
Autothrust Blue said:
At least on the (carbon-brake equipped ones that I've flown) 140/145 and the 170/175, reverse thrust is only really used (above idle or at all) if the runway is wet or contaminated. Autobrakes low and idle reverse doesn't do much on this jet. Above those settings, though, the effect is...well, it's there.


Yeeeeeeeeep. I know the performance data SAYS that I *can* land Flaps 5 and not use TRs at all in Santa Ana, but that doesn't mean I do it; it seems much more prudent to land FULL and use reverse until a safe stop is assured. Double ditto for Burbank. I don't want to have to explain why I didn't use all available resources to stop given the relatively short length of these runways, performance data notwithstanding.

If you THINK you need to use thrust reversers, put them out there, and put them out there early, and spool them up early. Engines can take just this side of forever to go from ground idle to a usable level of reverse, not to mention the possible delays in just getting the sleeves or buckets in the reverse position.
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as long as you continue to write yourself your go around reminder..... :D
 
No documented additional wear on the engines or brakes at AMF using or not using reverse, or using or not using the brakes in any airframe. Beta/Reverse/Brakes as deemed necessary by the PIC is all our SOPs state. Except for single engine landings with the Metro, all performance data is based on using the brakes only anyways.

The Metro has a fun 5 minute cool down requirement, so I try to only use beta and get that timer started early. The cool down has been a requirement for about 2 years now and most pilots will say they use beta and as much of the brakes as their strength will allow (no power brakes). No documented increase in brake wear yet either.

So as far as BE-99s, 1900s, SA227s, and Brasilias go. Doesn't matter, just don't crash... :)

My old philosophy was that the engines get overhauled anyways, use them, but there appears to not be any increase in maintenance costs vs. technique used over the 4 planes I've mentioned. Your plane, SOPs, and motivations may vary of course.
 
Cptnchia said:
Let me rephrase. Haven't done a whole lotta flying to Europe, Asia, South America or Africa? Canada, Mexico and the Caribbean is what SWA calls "near international." Doesn't really count. Especially Canada.

And seriously, you really want to do the whole transoceanic measuring contest? Oh, @Derg wanna set this fool straight?
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I'd say Canada is closer to Europe than any of those other places...and not in a "I can see Russia from my back yard" kind of way. I've never seen YYZ or YUL busy, but that doesn't keep them from having 93 pages of Jeps, including a fair amount o noise abatement stuff.
 
Cptnchia said:
Don't do a whole lotta flying outside the U.S., do you? Especially Europe. Brakes and idle reverse, unless you need TRs to keep from departing the runway. Otherwise, it's a noise violation if you use them and didn't need to.

Works good, lasts a long time.
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You're not going to get violated for noise on the ground for thrust reverse use...

You're not going to get violated for anything under the sun in South America...
 
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Just looking up a manual landing distance calculation....

For a dry RWY (Med auto brake) with Reverse you stop drumroll please......
20 feet shorter!

Of course the autobrake system commands a certain deceleration rate and releases brake pressure as rev thrust is added.
 
Cptnchia said:
Let me rephrase. Haven't done a whole lotta flying to Europe, Asia, South America or Africa? Canada, Mexico and the Caribbean is what SWA calls "near international." Doesn't really count. Especially Canada.

And seriously, you really want to do the whole transoceanic measuring contest? Oh, @Derg wanna set this fool straight?
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Who knew SWA determines what the definition of international is?!

Are Trinidad, Bogota, Cartagena, Lima, Quito, Barbados, Greneda considered international? I mean SWA don't fly there.....but it can be reached by a narrowbody........

They all allow unlimited reverse though, so they must not be real international. No need to wake Mr Taylor for this one lol.
 
ian said:
as long as you continue to write yourself your go around reminder..... :D
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It's the best way I've found to avoid cocking it up, to tell you the truth.

I assume that I am a fairly terrible pilot, and so I scribble such notes so that I may avoid (1) a Vfe excceedance and consequent embarassment, and (2) premature retraction of the slats. (And am pleasantly surprised when I fail to make either error. :) )
 
Seggy said:
How about KCM and discounts (like every other airport in the country gives) for air crew members at the concessions where you work?

#idontbuyanythingattpa
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Let me check, but our new concessions contract may actually give you guys the employee discount (that even we didn't get with the old contract).
 
Seggy said:
Disgusting y'all didn't even get a discount!

Any word on KCM?
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Still trying to find out about KCM.

We do have an employee cafeteria that's pretty cheap - that's always been the alternative to discounted pricing. Not great food, but when you just want a $2 hot dog, in lieu of the $5 one in the terminal, it works in a pinch.
 
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