Pension

z987k said:
Well to be fair said blue collar fields don't have a single airline per union. Shop A goes bust, you go on the books and when your name comes up you go to shop B that needs some guys. At your previous wages. So the likelihood of it going unfunded are slim.

That's only true in some limited fields. The real reason that it isn't as big a deal for blue collar workers is simple. The average blue collar worker collecting a pension doesn't have a benefit higher than the PBGC maximum, so the millions of American blue collar workers who have had their pension plans terminated never noticed the difference. The PBGC just pays what they always got. It's different with pilots. A pilot's pension is usually worth double or triple the PBGC maximum, so a terminated plan is a really big deal.
 
The company puts money into a pension plan.
And you do as well...wife's pension costs her 8% a year. But the difference is, she is supposed to get 80% with our buy up with her TFA. But when the state goes BK and or runs out of money to steal it won't.
 
SFLAX said:
And you do as well...wife's pension costs her 8% a year. But the difference is, she is supposed to get 80% with our buy up with her TFA. But when the state goes BK and or runs out of money to steal it won't.

That's unusual. An A-Plan is typically funded entirely by the employer.
 
That's only true in some limited fields. The real reason that it isn't as big a deal for blue collar workers is simple. The average blue collar worker collecting a pension doesn't have a benefit higher than the PBGC maximum, so the millions of American blue collar workers who have had their pension plans terminated never noticed the difference. The PBGC just pays what they always got. It's different with pilots. A pilot's pension is usually worth double or triple the PBGC maximum, so a terminated plan is a really big deal.
It's like that for all the trades that I have ever been around.
 
z987k said:
It's like that for all the trades that I have ever been around.

It's actually pretty rare. Mostly limited to the skilled trades in northern states. Unionized workers all across the country in various professions don't have that same benefit.
 
USMCmech said:
If anything you should be dumping even more cash into retirement when the market is panicking.

I bought when everyone else was selling when the market crashed last month. I'm up 11% on that investment.

I know I say it all the time, but it's the most important quote on investing:

"Be greedy when others are fearful, and fearful when others are greedy." - Warren Buffett
 
/Tinfoilhat = on

Yea, pensions.

Back in the day, people would sock away cash into their, well, stuff. The problem with that is that their stuff doesn't do much for the economy. At least, that's the way it is sold by Wall Street types.

The real truth is that Wall Street doesn't make money unless money churns. Buying and selling, money changing hands, and the house always gets it's cut. They don't get bubbkis unless you do something with your cash.

Once they figured that out, we saw an absolutely unbelievable extraction of equity from the middle class.

Lets look at your house. You got a mortgage, probably at a fairly decent rate, plus a little tax break to make it a little better. Bank makes a little cash on the interest. You sink your money in your home as you pay off the principal. That money, to Wall Street, is absolutely SUNK. They can't touch it, and it drives them nuts...I mean it's a huge untapped market. So what do they do? Hey home equity loans. Now they get to double dip you to blow your saved principal on...well, stuff!

Credit cards and checks. On cards you get 30 days net (well, 28). You pay it off, the card companies don't charge you any interest. They have to make it on the front end with the merchants. You write a check, it takes 3-5 working days for it to clear. Why does that drive them nuts? Because they just floated you money for free for 3-5 days for checks and 30 days for cards. So, how do they eliminate that? DEBIT CARDS and EFT...they get their cash RIGHT AWAY. You don't think they went through all that trouble to make it convenient for you, did you? The elimination of that float is colossal.

So, that brings us to defined benefit plans. The rules, as we saw them in the late 1990s, were almost set in opposition to trigger terminations. In good times, businesses were prohibited from contributing more than a certain amount to DB plans. Why? Because those contributions were seen as tax shelters, and the government wanted their money. So there was simply NO WAY DB plans could be over funded for a rainy day.

On the other end, when the market takes a crap-o-la, like 2001, the system was setup to put those plans into almost immediate distress, which triggered huge funding requirements....which, if the funds took a hit from investments, it probably meant the entire economy is in the tank, and so obviously it was the perfect time to require a business to fork over an insane amount of cash.

Think of it like this: You have a mortgage, you have a job, and 5 years worth of expenses in savings. You lose your job, and the bank immediately calls the note on your house. You say "hey, I got some money saved and I can get another job", but the bank says "we don't care, you're unemployed NOW".

The insane irony of the DB plans is that in good investment years, company's could get away with very little (and sometimes no) funding. And here's the best part....back when some smart guys figured that pilot pensions were REALLY exposed, they went to the company to see if they could be annuitized to a third party (IE get your slice in your name) and transition away from a DB plan to a defined contribution plan....the company said "NO WAY, DB PLANS ARE FREE, DC PLANS COST REAL MONEY LOLZ!!!"

By the way, this is all assuming a "typical" single employer plan. Multiemployer plans get into a huge trainwreck because over time as companies leave the plan (went out of business), the rest of the participants have to make up the shortfall, even for those employees at the defunct companies. Can you say "graveyard spiral"?

So why the push to get rid of DB plans anyway? Well, lots of laws for one. They require very conservative investment portfolios. That means a huge pile of cash sitting and not churning....and remember the top of the post? Wall Street HATES it when money isn't churning. The 401k, practically government mandated, is the king of churning money. It's like all the people in the US give free money to Wall Street every two weeks to do as they please. Just imagine what the stock market would look like without the insane amount of funding the US Taxpayer makes every paycheck. 800 points? 1000 points maybe on the NYSE.

If you are a 401k techie, and like to work it, there is no doubt that you can do OK. You'd better do a lot of research and hope that your timing is right to come out of the other end OK.

The absolute unstated beautiful thing about having a DB plan was the total lack of worry it required (other than, of course, termination). You had to do absolutely zippo. You didn't have to adjust your contributions or investments, you didn't have to give one iota of thought to the financial markets or worry about if you would outlive your money. If you kept on ticking, you got yer monthly check...FOR LIFE. Your widow/widower got a nice taste with a survivors benefit as well.

These days people absolutely obsess of their retirement. And it is making people VERY weary. You can see it in their faces. The other unstated part is that "here, you can make more money with this new plan" sales job when we were transitioned away from DB plans very rarely worked out when the employers threw the whole burden on the employees when you figured the "all in". Add in the burden from health care, also recently (relatively) deposited on the middle class, and it's no wonder people are all kinds of crabby. Throw in some "new expenses" like cable TV, cell phones, insane activities for kids, and it's absolutely no wonder why two parents need to work these days (ooops, forgot to add in child care, also).

But hey, I'm just Frozen Caveman Pilot. Dayball burn Grog eyes.

/tinfoil hat = off

Richman
 
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/Tinfoilhat = on

Yea, pensions.

Back in the day, people would sock away cash into their, well, stuff. The problem with that is that their stuff doesn't do much for the economy. At least, that's the way it is sold by Wall Street types.

The real truth is that Wall Street doesn't make money unless money churns. Buying and selling, money changing hands, and the house always gets it's cut. They don't get bubbkis unless you do something with your cash.

Once they figured that out, we saw an absolutely unbelievable extraction of equity from the middle class.

Lets look at your house. You got a mortgage, probably at a fairly decent rate, plus a little tax break to make it a little better. Bank makes a little cash on the interest. You sink your money in your home as you pay off the principal. That money, to Wall Street, is absolutely SUNK. They can't touch it, and it drives them nuts...I mean it's a huge untapped market. So what do they do? Hey home equity loans. Now they get to double dip you to blow your saved principal on...well, stuff!

Credit cards and checks. On cards you get 30 days net (well, 28). You pay it off, the card companies don't charge you any interest. They have to make it on the front end with the merchants. You write a check, it takes 3-5 working days for it to clear. Why does that drive them nuts? Because they just floated you money for free for 3-5 days for checks and 30 days for cards. So, how do they eliminate that? DEBIT CARDS and EFT...they get their cash RIGHT AWAY. You don't think they went through all that trouble to make it convenient for you, did you? The elimination of that float is colossal.

So, that brings us to defined benefit plans. The rules, as we saw them in the late 1990s, were almost set in opposition to trigger terminations. In good times, businesses were prohibited from contributing more than a certain amount to DB plans. Why? Because those contributions were seen as tax shelters, and the government wanted their money. So there was simply NO WAY DB plans could be over funded for a rainy day.

On the other end, when the market takes a crap-o-la, like 2001, the system was setup to put those plans into almost immediate distress, which triggered huge funding requirements....which, if the funds took a hit from investments, it probably meant the entire economy is in the tank, and so obviously it was the perfect time to require a business to fork over an insane amount of cash.

Think of it like this: You have a mortgage, you have a job, and 5 years worth of expenses in savings. You lose your job, and the bank immediately calls the note on your house. You say "hey, I got some money saved and I can get another job", but the bank says "we don't care, you're unemployed NOW".

The insane irony of the DB plans is that in good investment years, company's could get away with very little (and sometimes no) funding. And here's the best part....back when some smart guys figured that pilot pensions were REALLY exposed, they went to the company to see if they could be annuitized to a third party (IE get your slice in your name) and transition away from a DB plan to a defined contribution plan....the company said "NO WAY, DB PLANS ARE FREE, DC PLANS COST REAL MONEY LOLZ!!!"

By the way, this is all assuming a "typical" single employer plan. Multiemployer plans get into a huge trainwreck because over time as companies leave the plan (went out of business), the rest of the participants have to make up the shortfall, even for those employees at the defunct companies. Can you say "graveyard spiral"?

So why the push to get rid of DB plans anyway? Well, lots of laws for one. They require very conservative investment portfolios. That means a huge pile of cash sitting and not churning....and remember the top of the post? Wall Street HATES it when money isn't churning. The 401k, practically government mandated, is the king of churning money. It's like all the people in the US give free money to Wall Street every two weeks to do as they please. Just imagine what the stock market would look like without the insane amount of funding the US Taxpayer makes every paycheck. 800 points? 1000 points maybe on the NYSE.

If you are a 401k techie, and like to work it, there is no doubt that you can do OK. You'd better do a lot of research and hope that your timing is right to come out of the other end OK.

The absolute unstated beautiful thing about having a DB plan was the total lack of worry it required (other than, of course, termination). You had to do absolutely zippo. You didn't have to adjust your contributions or investments, you didn't have to give one iota of thought to the financial markets or worry about if you would outlive your money. If you kept on ticking, you got yer monthly check...FOR LIFE. Your widow/widower got a nice taste with a survivors benefit as well.

These days people absolutely obsess of their retirement. And it is making people VERY weary. You can see it in their faces. The other unstated part is that "here, you can make more money with this new plan" sales job when we were transitioned away from DB plans very rarely worked out when the employers threw the whole burden on the employees when you figured the "all in". Add in the burden from health care, also recently (relatively) deposited on the middle class, and it's no wonder people are all kinds of crabby. Throw in some "new expenses" like cable TV, cell phones, insane activities for kids, and it's absolutely no wonder why two parents need to work these days (ooops, forgot to add in child care, also).

But hey, I'm just Frozen Caveman Pilot. Dayball burn Grog eyes.

/tinfoil hat = off

Richman
Wait, I'm reading a good book about that.
 
100 CEOs Have Saved as Much for Retirement as 50 Million Americans

By JANNA HERRON 20 hours ago

Just 100 top CEOs have as much saved for retirement as 50 million Americans, thanks in large part to special savings plans that their employees don’t receive, according to a new study.

The Center for Effective Government found that the 100 biggest nest eggs of corporate chiefs added up to $4.9 billion, or 41 percent of what American families have saved for retirement. David Novak, the former CEO of Yum Brands, the company that owns Taco Bell, Pizza Hut and KFC, had the largest nest egg, worth $234.2 million, or enough money to provide an annuity check of about $1.3 million a month starting at age 65.

By contrast, almost three in 10 Americans approaching their golden years have no retirement savings at all, the study said, and more than half between 50 and 64 will have to depend on Social Security alone, which averages $1,233 per month.

CEOs enjoy these plans even as companies eliminate regular defined-benefit plans for employees. Only 10 percent of companies provide defined-benefit pension plans, covering just 18 percent of private sector workers, according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics. In the early 1990s, more than a third of private sector workers had pension plans.

Executive Tax-Deferred Compensation Plans
Almost three-fourths of Fortune 500 companies offer their senior executives tax-deferred compensation plans. Unlike 401(k) plans offered to regular workers, these special plans have no limits on annual contributions. That allows CEOs to invest a lot more in their retirement than everyday Americans. For example, last year, 198 CEOs running Fortune 500 companies were able to invest $197 million more in these plans because they were not hamstrung by limitations on defined compensation plans, the study found.

American workers over 50 can contribute only $24,000 a year to 401(k) plans, while younger employees have an $18,000 limit.
 
Rampant Corporate Psychopathy

They got psychiatrists strategically positioned to commit torture too...if and when the cheese falls off yo cracka.

specimen_zpscfonlygg.jpg
 
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