Question regarding Marine flight school

wannabejetpilot said:
Thanks everyone for your responses! I was just looking at the navy option as well and did a lot of research on that. However, I see that it is practically harder to get a flight slot. I am majoring in biology. I've heard that the Navy likes people with degrees in Aerospace engineering and physics stuff. Is this true? Does the navy mostly choose people with AE degrees over others? I talked to ROTC students/grads who were going for a flight slot who didn't major in the 2 fields and they were assigned to go to submarine warfare and lost any chance of a flight slot. I also read on air warriors about submarine drafts.
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I would say that is largely inaccurate. Little bits of truth in there, such as the supposed "sub draft" a few years ago. Is it harder in the Navy? I wouldn't really say so, but there is no PLC-air type of contract available so maybe it seems that way. You can however do Navy OCS with an aviation contract. Does the Navy like technical majors? Yes. Are the majority of Naval Aviators engineering/physics/technical types? No. If I had to guess, probably half the guys/gals I know were non-technical majors in college. The biggest things are your GPA and ASTB scores. In terms of grades, that is more where I saw the tech vs non-tech thing come into play. Generally you need a higher GPA to be competitive in something like poli sci, than you do in say double E. But I think the biggest thing that got guys, at least when I was going through the process, was feeling they needed to be in a tech major and just blindly continuing with it, even after it wasn't going well. Plenty of folks who tanked their cumulative GPA over the course of 2 years in lower division engineering classes, before they were wisely advised to switch majors. Those are the guys who are kind of fodder when it comes to community selection prior to commissioning. Pick a major you think you would enjoy and excel in. The Navy really doesn't care what that is, as long as you do well. If that is biology for you, I wouldn't sweat it. FWIW I think the AF is quite a bit more hard up for engineering types, so this might not apply for USAF hopefuls.
 
wannabejetpilot said:
Thanks everyone for your responses! I was just looking at the navy option as well and did a lot of research on that. However, I see that it is practically harder to get a flight slot. I am majoring in biology. I've heard that the Navy likes people with degrees in Aerospace engineering and physics stuff. Is this true? Does the navy mostly choose people with AE degrees over others? I talked to ROTC students/grads who were going for a flight slot who didn't major in the 2 fields and they were assigned to go to submarine warfare and lost any chance of a flight slot. I also read on air warriors about submarine drafts.
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Granted my info will be about 10 years out of date, I would have to say unless things have changed for service selection out of NROTC and the Naval Academy, you can only service select unrestricted line officer communities, which means surface, sub, aviation, and specwar. Those are your only 4 choices unless you were found not physically qualified for those communities.

In the Navy, aviation is a larger community compared to the other three communities, I.e. There are more plane drivers in the Navy than there are ship drivers, I would have to say your chances of becoming a pilot in the Navy is greater than being a pilot in the Marine Corps and I don't think the Navy slots pilots into UAVs like the Air Force does.

Submarines are very selective, specwar is very super duper selective, which leaves aviation and surface. Most folks want aviation, so the competitiveness comes from everyone wanting a flight slot, but nothing compared to what it takes to get into subs or specwar. But the fact is the Navy commissions more aviators every year than they commission surface officers.

So I'd say getting to be a pilot through the Navy is probably pretty good if you work hard and break out compared to your peers (something you will be doing the entire time in the Navy if you want to stay in the Navy) and of course there's definitely no guarantee of getting a pointy-end fighter.

Basically if you want to go Navy to be a pilot, are you willing be be a Naval Officer first, just like if you went Marine, are you willing to be an Infantry Officer?
 
woodreau said:
Basically if you want to go Navy to be a pilot, are you willing be be a Naval Officer first, just like if you went Marine, are you willing to be an Infantry Officer?
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I beg to differ. That's the biggest bunch of horse hockey in real life.......and I say this in a funny, humorous way, with a story of mine: :D

I work with a bunch of former and current reserve Naval Aviators, namely HS/HSL/HC, but at least one VFA and a former VS guy. One of the former HSL gents was covering down on my graveyard shift with me, where we also have another HSL guy. Waiting on some WX to lift, I'm killing time looking up random crap on the computer, and while checking out some pics of USN cruisers, frigates, etc, I notice things like this picture. Being USAF, these are completely foreign to me. Conversation goes like this:

Me: "John, what do all these various symbols and designations mean, different colors, slashes, and stars above them?"

John: "Hmmph. I don't know. Why?"

Me: "What??? What do you mean you 'don't know'?

John: "I don't know? I mean that I've seen them here and there, but don't know what they mean"

Me: "What? How the hell can you not know what they mean? You're a freaking US Naval officer, are you not?!?!?"

John: "Yeah, but I flew helos, I don't know anything about ships. That's black shoe stuff."

HSL guy #2, who walks up: "What's up Mike? Wondering what those are? And you ask John??"

Me: "Well, yeah, I figure he'd know, supposedly being a Naval officer and all."

HSL guy #2: "That's what you get for figuring. He's OCS, I'm Annapolis. If you're looking for answers from a 'real Naval officer', you're not going to get it from him......or the others here for that matter." :)

So I call BS on that. :D

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Yeah, Navy dudes are different. As a Marine, I'd be much happier with Marine Air flying CAS than anyone else.
 
Cptnchia said:
Yeah, Navy dudes are different. As a Marine, I'd be much happier with Marine Air flying CAS than anyone else.
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It's funny, you can see where Marines just seem to be more comfortable with Marines, rightfully or wrongfully.

About 13 years ago, I remember being airborne on XCAS (on-call airborne CAS) out of Kirkuk, Iraq. We get a call for a TIC....Marines engaged with insurgents east of Al Taqaddum on a road near a built up area. Plugging the coords in, it's about 10 minutes away. Coming up on their freq, I contact the Marine Ground FAC or ANGLICO and pass our lineup.....2 Hogs, each 4 x 82 airburst, 14 rockets, gun, and AGMs available, all the while hearing the firefight and heavy amount of automatic weapons fire in the background of the comms. The GFAC acknowledges, gives us the sitrep and friendly/enemy locations, and asks if we have playtime, and I let him know about 30 minutes or so. He asks if we can hold high overhead the fight, as he has some Harriers inbound from somewhere, that are about 10 minutes out now also. I figure it's rather odd that in the middle of what sounds like a pretty serious firefight, he's going to be choosy over what TACAIR he gets, but hey.....he's with the ground commander, the ground commander is the customer, and what the customer wants, they get. I'm just the delivery truck.

The Harriers check in with the GFAC, and immediately it's very apparent the familiarity and perception of comfort level between the Harrier section lead and the GFAC. I don't know necessarily that they knew one another personally, but you could tell that it was like talking to a family member.....still professional of course, but just with alot more seeming ease. Less questions, less confirmation needs, as if they each have each others playbook in hand and the Harrier Marine seeming to know exactly what the ground Marine is attempting to have done with the air support: Marines working with Marines. The Harriers only had one LGB, 1 rocket pod, and gun each; but they went to work in short order, expended their ordnance and strafe, and departed; with the GFAC then releasing my flight and thanking us for standing by.

Was interesting to see, as I'd only rarely before worked with Marine ground units, and never worked with a Marine ground unit that was working with one of their own air units already. Even though in OEF 1 when we opened up Bagram and we had VMA-513 and their AV-8s there parked next to us; they seemingly did their thing, and we did ours. We never worked together or integrated. They were tasked to their air support targets through a separate DASC, as I never heard them talking to our ASOC where we received our taskings from.
 
They probably did know each other. From what I remember, the GFACs were actual Marine pilots who had to take turns on the line.
 
MikeD said:
It's funny, you can see where Marines just seem to be more comfortable with Marines, rightfully or wrongfully.

About 13 years ago, I remember being airborne on XCAS (on-call airborne CAS) out of Kirkuk, Iraq. We get a call for a TIC....Marines engaged with insurgents east of Al Taqaddum on a road near a built up area. Plugging the coords in, it's about 10 minutes away. Coming up on their freq, I contact the Marine Ground FAC or ANGLICO and pass our lineup.....2 Hogs, each 4 x 82 airburst, 14 rockets, gun, and AGMs available, all the while hearing the firefight and heavy amount of automatic weapons fire in the background of the comms. The GFAC acknowledges, gives us the sitrep and friendly/enemy locations, and asks if we have playtime, and I let him know about 30 minutes or so. He asks if we can hold high overhead the fight, as he has some Harriers inbound from somewhere, that are about 10 minutes out now also. I figure it's rather odd that in the middle of what sounds like a pretty serious firefight, he's going to be choosy over what TACAIR he gets, but hey.....he's with the ground commander, the ground commander is the customer, and what the customer wants, they get. I'm just the delivery truck.

The Harriers check in with the GFAC, and immediately it's very apparent the familiarity and perception of comfort level between the Harrier section lead and the GFAC. I don't know necessarily that they knew one another personally, but you could tell that it was like talking to a family member.....still professional of course, but just with alot more seeming ease. Less questions, less confirmation needs, as if they each have each others playbook in hand and the Harrier Marine seeming to know exactly what the ground Marine is attempting to have done with the air support: Marines working with Marines. The Harriers only had one LGB, 1 rocket pod, and gun each; but they went to work in short order, expended their ordnance and strafe, and departed; with the GFAC then releasing my flight and thanking us for standing by.

Was interesting to see, as I'd only rarely before worked with Marine ground units, and never worked with a Marine ground unit that was working with one of their own air units already. Even though in OEF 1 when we opened up Bagram and we had VMA-513 and their AV-8s there parked next to us; they seemingly did their thing, and we did ours. We never worked together or integrated. They were tasked to their air support targets through a separate DASC, as I never heard them talking to our ASOC where we received our taskings from.
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This is a source of potential inefficiency and could potentially be dangerous, no? I mean, I'm an outsider, but to me, looking in, this could be problematic.
 
ppragman said:
This is a source of potential inefficiency and could potentially be dangerous, no? I mean, I'm an outsider, but to me, looking in, this could be problematic.
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Every community has there way of doing things even in the era of "joint" warfare.

Big example is Army aviation fires doctrine vs everybody else.

Because Apache is defined as a maneuver platform (same as a tank or an infantry platoon) I can release ordnance on my own decision within coordinating range of ground troops using no more than a 5 line Close Combat format. Meaning tell me who you are, where you are, what you want killed, where it is, and when you want it killed. Beyond that you have no choice over how I conduct my attack or what I do it with. And when ROE permits it I can pick and choose my own targets based off nothing more than ground commanders intent for me that is briefed before the action.

To any other piece of air power playing in that sandbox when dropping rounds near ground troops they require coordination for a 9 line CAS call for fire and positive control throughout the attack by a certified terminal air controller. That can be as open as what I do or as restrictive as you will attack from this direction using this bomb and this fusing only against the target I mark at a time of my choosing.

It's done that way because my familiarity with being directly attached to the unit I'm supporting and gone through the entire mission planning process I have a pre coordination that some fighter on the tasking order just cannot get.
 
ppragman said:
This is a source of potential inefficiency and could potentially be dangerous, no? I mean, I'm an outsider, but to me, looking in, this could be problematic.
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It depends. In my case I cited above, the ground FAC ........who is representing the ground commander.........apparently felt comfortable enough even in the firefight they were in, to wait a bit for support that they may have been more used to dealing with. That's entirely the ground commander's call.

I'm sure if the situation was critical enough, the ground commander would've taken whatever he could get, first come, first serve.
 
MikeD said:
I beg to differ. That's the biggest bunch of horse hockey in real life.......and I say this in a funny, humorous way, with a story of mine: :D

So I call BS on that. :D

View attachment 32985
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Well ok, I definitely took too long to say, that I think his chances of flying the Navy are pretty good (if things are still the same from over 10 years ago), as the Navy has more pilots than surface guys. I mean it's not cakewalk, but chances are pretty good, it's not like he can get shuffled off into contracting or supply or postal officer, missile silo officer, UAV corp, JAG corps, medical corps after commissioning. So when he finally does get into naval aviation, is he dead set on flying a fighter, or is he okay with being a helo pilot? Two different worlds, never really worked with VF/VFA guys, but worked with tons of HC/HS/HSL guys and although they're all naval aviators. But at the same time, if for some reason he doesn't make it into aviation, is he okay with being a surface guy? Another totally different world. Aviation attrites don't end up in submarines or SpecWar, they almost always end up in surface if they're retained and not bounced out of the Navy. So that's what I meant when I said is he okay with being a Naval Officer going into the Navy.

All those freaking letters and stuff, heck I'm a surface guy, and I don't know what all those letters mean. Ok I lied. Surface is it's own inbred commuity, There is the Battle E /Battle Efficiency Award that every ship competes for annually - that's the top right ribbon with the E in awards salad. For the longest time only one ship in the fleet got it. Then in the late-90s the rules changed and any ship that met the standards got it. (like participation trophies nowadays) and it cheapened the Battle E's IMO and by the time I was on my way out the Navy, they were clamping down on giving out Battle E's and limiting to one per type community - one carrier each fleet, one cruiser/destroyer each fleet, one amphib each fleet.

If the ship didn't get the battle E, but certain departments scored enough points to get their departmental Battle E's, the ship could wear their departmental Es. To be honest, I never saw it that bad as in the photo you posted. Usually it's just Es, a White E to denote getting the Battle E, colored Es for all the departmental Es. Hash marks indicate consecutive awards year over year. For your specific photo I'm guessing: CS Combat Systems, DC Damage Control, Purple E probably Aviation Fuels Battle E, Red E Engineering departmental Battle E. Blue E for Supply Departmental Battle E, S for Safety Department. Personally I think all those excessive letters are compensating for something along the lines of... "hey we didn't win the Battle E, but look at how close we got..." I've never seen DC and Aviation fuels broken out from engineering, or Combat Systems CS broken out from the general green E.

Anyways, usually no one will know or care what all those letters mean other than the commanding officer/department heads/senior leadership on the ship - as they're the ones most likely direct painting of all those letters. No one else on the waterfront cares.

MikeD said:
It's funny, you can see where Marines just seem to be more comfortable with Marines, rightfully or wrongfully.

About 13 years ago, I remember being airborne on XCAS (on-call airborne CAS) out of Kirkuk, Iraq. We get a call for a TIC....Marines engaged with insurgents east of Al Taqaddum on a road near a built up area. Plugging the coords in, it's about 10 minutes away. Coming up on their freq, I contact the Marine Ground FAC or ANGLICO and pass our lineup.....2 Hogs, each 4 x 82 airburst, 14 rockets, gun, and AGMs available, all the while hearing the firefight and heavy amount of automatic weapons fire in the background of the comms. The GFAC acknowledges, gives us the sitrep and friendly/enemy locations, and asks if we have playtime, and I let him know about 30 minutes or so. He asks if we can hold high overhead the fight, as he has some Harriers inbound from somewhere, that are about 10 minutes out now also. I figure it's rather odd that in the middle of what sounds like a pretty serious firefight, he's going to be choosy over what TACAIR he gets, but hey.....he's with the ground commander, the ground commander is the customer, and what the customer wants, they get. I'm just the delivery truck.

The Harriers check in with the GFAC, and immediately it's very apparent the familiarity and perception of comfort level between the Harrier section lead and the GFAC. I don't know necessarily that they knew one another personally, but you could tell that it was like talking to a family member.....still professional of course, but just with alot more seeming ease. Less questions, less confirmation needs, as if they each have each others playbook in hand and the Harrier Marine seeming to know exactly what the ground Marine is attempting to have done with the air support: Marines working with Marines. The Harriers only had one LGB, 1 rocket pod, and gun each; but they went to work in short order, expended their ordnance and strafe, and departed; with the GFAC then releasing my flight and thanking us for standing by.

Was interesting to see, as I'd only rarely before worked with Marine ground units, and never worked with a Marine ground unit that was working with one of their own air units already. Even though in OEF 1 when we opened up Bagram and we had VMA-513 and their AV-8s there parked next to us; they seemingly did their thing, and we did ours. We never worked together or integrated. They were tasked to their air support targets through a separate DASC, as I never heard them talking to our ASOC where we received our taskings from.
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Usually Marine aviation units have been working with the ground unit as an integrated MAGTF for well over a year through workups before showing up in theater. The Marines are very protective of their assets, and in the table of organization they're considered organic to the ground unit. A lesson they learned and never forgot when the Navy abandoned them on Guadalcanal over 70 years ago. Even in 1999 when I was attached a Marine infantry battalion, the Marines I was with never let me forget that "I" as the Navy guy in their unit personally abandoned them in 1942 - something I had to school myself up on once I became aware of the animosity. It was there even at the division level when I was running the Fires cell working with the MAW reps, we ran our own ATO. we treated Harriers and F-18s as another extension of the Marine division along with our arty battalions and attached Army MLRS units.
 
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wannabejetpilot said:
Hi, I am a freshman in college and majoring in biology.I am looking into joining the Marine corps as a pilot, specifically fighters. I know if I want to fly jets, the marines isn't the way to go, but I like the idea of how the marines guarantee flight slots in PLC. I plan on doing PLC and getting started soon. I would like to fly either the f18, f35, av8b, or even the prowler. I researched deeply into doing this and learned that you have to be the top one percent of your class in flight school to fly what you want. How hard exactly is it to be the top 1 percent in marine flight school? I know a some things about aircraft and aircraft systems especially when it comes to flying fighters because I read about them a lot. I heard over on baseops and airwarriors that coming in with a humble attitude, never arguing with the IP, and not thinking you know everything helps and that you have to have a more eager to learn and improve mentality. I plan on starting flight school soon and going all the way up to at least instrument rating by time I graduate. I've looked into majoring in aerospace engineering, but I am terrible at math though. So anyone that has been a military pilot, can you give me any pointers or advice on becoming the top one percent in my flight training class? I read that its all luck and timing and that it really depends on how the class in front of yours performance is and how you have to achieve a score on a test after primary flight training(which changes depending on that class performance). I also know that needs of the service is first. How many jet slots are usually available each year for a particular class? Another thing I read on air warriors was that there are also helo drafts and jet drafts:D. Since the marines have mostly helos and only about 300 or so jets in their inventory, I think its realistic that I would most likely be in a helo draft, which I wouldn't mind, but I would mostly like to serve flying jets
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My Last flying job was a T-34C/T-6B Primary Flight Training Instructor for the Navy at NAS Whiting Field.

I had many on-wings that went on to fly in just about every community.

the top 1% idea isn't really accurate. It's luck and timing, and NSS.

If you're a consistently solid performer (read 65+ out of 80 on the NSS scale), slots generally tend to become available to you for the platform you want, unless there are no more slots available for the FY, or theres a draft because a specific community is way behind in production. Right now, all the pipelines are behind in production due to the T-6B transition (T-6Bs can't produce the student volume that T-34Cs could).

Good plan on applying to PLC. As you become eligible for commissioning programs, apply for them all until you get the job that you want. Navy OCS can guarantee a pilot contract as well, but I believe you need to wait until you're close to graduation (if not graduated) to apply.
 
Cptnchia said:
This is an important question to ask. You need to choose which branch is the best fit. Take the following sentence. It means something completely different to each branch.

Secure that building.

To the Army: Post guards and challenge anyone approaching.

To the Navy: Turn out all the lights and lock the door when you leave.

To the Air Force: Buy the building with a low interest rate and favorable loan terms.

To the Corps: Overrun the building, kill everyone inside, set up a perimeter, and turn it into to CP.

Depending on which answer you agree with, that is the branch for you!
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What does the Coast Guard do?
 
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