STARs and speed/altitude restrictions in a GA plane

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Quick question for the controllers about how you'd prefer someone to file. I'm going into Vegas next week in a Mooney, and the arrivals all have speed and altitude restrictions faster and higher than my airplane even cruises. Obviously I can't file a STAR that says you have to be at 250 knots or FL200 at a certain fix, so I'm curious how you'd prefer that someone file:

1. Should I file the fixes that are on the STAR? Example: ...PGS CEJAY KADDY TYSSN SUZSI PRINO KLAS (where PGS is the transition fix on the STAR).

2. Or would you prefer that I just file ...PGS KLAS, ignoring that there is even a STAR, and let you fill in anything between those two fixes?

3. Something else?

Sorry, might be a very basic question, but I've been flying airliners for 15 years, and for the life of me I can't remember how I filed these back in my piston days.

 

[Cessnaflyer]

Or use fltplan.com and it tells you preferred routes #dropmic

 

[z987k]

Quick question for the controllers about how you'd prefer someone to file. I'm going into Vegas next week in a Mooney, and the arrivals all have speed and altitude restrictions faster and higher than my airplane even cruises. Obviously I can't file a STAR that says you have to be at 250 knots or FL200 at a certain fix, so I'm curious how you'd prefer that someone file:

1. Should I file the fixes that are on the STAR? Example: ...PGS CEJAY KADDY TYSSN SUZSI PRINO KLAS (where PGS is the transition fix on the STAR).

2. Or would you prefer that I just file ...PGS KLAS, ignoring that there is even a STAR, and let you fill in anything between those two fixes?

3. Something else?

Sorry, might be a very basic question, but I've been flying airliners for 15 years, and for the life of me I can't remember how I filed these back in my piston days.

You're probably going to be under most of the MEAs/MOCAs west of Denver/ABQ right? Certainly you'd be on O2 for hours if you're that high. Even if you can file airways to maintain an IFR clearance, you're probably going to still be non-radar for a good bit of it anyways.
The true honest answer, especially considering it's the desert Southwest is VFR direct. Get flight following when you can, squawk 1200 other times

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Or use fltplan.com and it tells you preferred routes #dropmic

I actually tried. All of the routes shown were for jets. The smallest one was a CJ2. So there!

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

You're probably going to be under most of the MEAs/MOCAs west of Denver/ABQ right? Certainly you'd be on O2 for hours if you're that high. Even if you can file airways to maintain an IFR clearance, you're probably going to still be non-radar for a good bit of it anyways.
The true honest answer, especially considering it's the desert Southwest is VFR direct. Get flight following when you can, squawk 1200 other times

Uh, no. I don't do VFR.

There are actually quite a few routes to take with only 10k MEAs.The highest point on the route I'm taking is 8k feet. I'll probably file at 12k, which is my usual altitude going west, and I never use O2.

 

[Cessnaflyer]

What I've done down in this area is file for the route you want to go and they'll alter it if need be. There's not much traffic in that area until you get close to the lake and LAS they'll vector you around as need be. Even in the King Air we don't fly much of the arrival either.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

So you'd recommend just PGS direct KLAS, and let them give me anything else they want?

 

[Cessnaflyer]

That is the best you can do there. There will be a lot of sightseeing cross traffic from Henderson but they usually stay pretty low. You could probably fit between them and the jet arrivals.

 

[z987k]

Uh, no. I don't do VFR.

Why? I understand why in the flatlands of the eastern US where there's a VOR every 15 miles or you can go direct everywhere and almost any altitude anyways.
There were many times flying in the high desert with an overcast that the MEA would put me into ice while the ceilings were still over 2000AGL.
I wouldn't either if I had a proper FIKI and turbocharged/turbine airplane going to IFR airports, but that's not the case.

 

[scott_l]

What I do (and am normally given) is file the fix that the arrival is named after then every fix after that(or file the arrival after the naming fix).

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Why? I understand why in the flatlands of the eastern US where there's a VOR every 15 miles or you can go direct everywhere and almost any altitude anyways.
There were many times flying in the high desert with an overcast that the MEA would put me into ice while the ceilings were still over 2000AGL.
I wouldn't either if I had a proper FIKI and turbocharged/turbine airplane going to IFR airports, but that's not the case.

Remember, I'm the guy who thinks that virtually all VFR should be outlawed. I think it's absolutely insane in the 21st century that we have people flying around in the NAS without talking to anyone.

But from a purely practical standpoint, I see no benefit and lots of downsides to flying VFR. On an IFR flight plan, ATC is responsible for traffic separation. They keep you out of restricted airspace and TFRs. They let you know if someone ahead has reported turbulence or icing. They hand you off to approach and tower so you aren't having to keep track of frequencies. Basically, they're doing all the work and keeping you out of trouble. I'll never understand why some people prefer VFR on cross-countries. I think it's just some sort of anti-authority bent or something. "I'll do what I want when I want without having to ask for permission!" Okay. Have fun with that. Let me know how the TFR bust goes.

 

[ppragman]

Remember, I'm the guy who thinks that virtually all VFR should be outlawed. I think it's absolutely insane in the 21st century that we have people flying around in the NAS without talking to anyone.

But from a purely practical standpoint, I see no benefit and lots of downsides to flying VFR. On an IFR flight plan, ATC is responsible for traffic separation. They keep you out of restricted airspace and TFRs. They let you know if someone ahead has reported turbulence or icing. They hand you off to approach and tower so you aren't having to keep track of frequencies. Basically, they're doing all the work and keeping you out of trouble. I'll never understand why some people prefer VFR on cross-countries. I think it's just some sort of anti-authority bent or something. "I'll do what I want when I want without having to ask for permission!" Okay. Have fun with that. Let me know how the TFR bust goes.

You know that you can be talking to people and be VFR, right? If you aren't willing to use VFR in your Mooney, then you're screwing yourself out of a lot of utility. Remember, that you also don't have to fly a STAR or a SID if you don't want to, and under part 91, there's no real requirement to even fly Obstacle Departures. Another option is simply file by the most convenient route altitude wise, then see what reroutes you get. Remember, you're in a Mooney now, ATC only cares about you if you're on fire or in the way.

 

[milleR]

Remember, I'm the guy who thinks that virtually all VFR should be outlawed. I think it's absolutely insane in the 21st century that we have people flying around in the NAS without talking to anyone.

But from a purely practical standpoint, I see no benefit and lots of downsides to flying VFR. On an IFR flight plan, ATC is responsible for traffic separation. They keep you out of restricted airspace and TFRs. They let you know if someone ahead has reported turbulence or icing. They hand you off to approach and tower so you aren't having to keep track of frequencies. Basically, they're doing all the work and keeping you out of trouble. I'll never understand why some people prefer VFR on cross-countries. I think it's just some sort of anti-authority bent or something. "I'll do what I want when I want without having to ask for permission!" Okay. Have fun with that. Let me know how the TFR bust goes.

There was a time when I agreed with this 100%. But enough days watching the fuel counter tick away holding short waiting for a release, more than a few 270° vectors on departure for the climb, and being dropped way low, way far out (all of this on perfectly clear days, mind you) mean I avoid flying IFR in the mid-atlantic whenever possible. Unless it's legitimately IMC or I need to be in the FL's I'll stick with flight following (every time), a quick brief from FSS (every time), and an updated route pack on Foreflight (every time). New York airspace is an absolute nightmare in the system (my block time goes up by 50% if I have to file, no joke) and modern technology has advanced lightyears in the last decade for SA.

 

[z987k]

Remember, I'm the guy who thinks that virtually all VFR should be outlawed. I think it's absolutely insane in the 21st century that we have people flying around in the NAS without talking to anyone.

But from a purely practical standpoint, I see no benefit and lots of downsides to flying VFR. On an IFR flight plan, ATC is responsible for traffic separation. They keep you out of restricted airspace and TFRs. They let you know if someone ahead has reported turbulence or icing. They hand you off to approach and tower so you aren't having to keep track of frequencies. Basically, they're doing all the work and keeping you out of trouble. I'll never understand why some people prefer VFR on cross-countries. I think it's just some sort of anti-authority bent or something. "I'll do what I want when I want without having to ask for permission!" Okay. Have fun with that. Let me know how the TFR bust goes.

I'll grant you it's more work since you have to actually check notams and look outside, but since you possibly have not flown NA pistons at high altitudes in the west especially going into winter, you'd be on the ground a lot for no good reason.
At 12,000ft and no radar ATC is only going to keep you separated from other IFR traffic. Not the VFR traffic that is possibly also at 12,000ft. You still have to see and avoid.
Next, it's perfectly safe to do the same route at a lower altitude outside the clouds and icing that you're going to see at the MEAs.
But more importantly with 2-4000ftAGL ceilings are you going to sit on the ground and wait a day or 7 for clear skies or high cirrus so you can fly IFR? That doesn't make any sense to me.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

You know that you can be talking to people and be VFR, right?

Of course, but you're not getting the aforementioned benefits of IFR.

If you aren't willing to use VFR in your Mooney, then you're screwing yourself out of a lot of utility.

Not in the slightest. Give me one example of something I might like to do that I can't do with an IFR flight plan.

Remember, that you also don't have to fly a STAR or a SID if you don't want to, and under part 91, there's no real requirement to even fly Obstacle Departures. Another option is simply file by the most convenient route altitude wise, then see what reroutes you get.

Yes, I know all of that, but I was asking what ATC preferred. Remember, this is the Pilot-Controller Questions forum.

 

[milleR]

I'll grant you it's more work since you have to actually check notams and look outside, but since you possibly have not flown NA pistons at high altitudes in the west especially going into winter, you'd be on the ground a lot for no good reason.
At 12,000ft and no radar ATC is only going to keep you separated from other IFR traffic. Not the VFR traffic that is possibly also at 12,000ft. You still have to see and avoid.
Next, it's perfectly safe to do the same route at a lower altitude outside the clouds and icing that you're going to see at the MEAs.
But more importantly with 2-4000ftAGL ceilings are you going to sit on the ground and wait a day or 7 for clear skies or high cirrus so you can fly IFR? That doesn't make any sense to me.

To be fair, when I got my first plane and coming from a 121 background I was scared of VFR too. I was used to somebody (ATC) holding my hand and it felt very uncomfortable giving that up. It took around 50-100 hours before I was genuinely comfortable, actually preferred, VFR to IFR.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

I'll grant you it's more work since you have to actually check notams and look outside, but since you possibly have not flown NA pistons at high altitudes in the west especially going into winter, you'd be on the ground a lot for no good reason.
At 12,000ft and no radar ATC is only going to keep you separated from other IFR traffic. Not the VFR traffic that is possibly also at 12,000ft. You still have to see and avoid.
Next, it's perfectly safe to do the same route at a lower altitude outside the clouds and icing that you're going to see at the MEAs.
But more importantly with 2-4000ftAGL ceilings are you going to sit on the ground and wait a day or 7 for clear skies or high cirrus so you can fly IFR? That doesn't make any sense to me.

If I was routinely flying in conditions where I had to worry about icing, I'd buy an airplane certified for flight into known icing conditions and wouldn't worry about it. That's not the case, though.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

To be fair, when I got my first plane and coming from a 121 background I was scared of VFR too. I was used to somebody (ATC) holding my hand and it felt very uncomfortable giving that up. It took around 50-100 hours before I was genuinely comfortable, actually preferred, VFR to IFR.

Yeah, not scared, my friend.

 

[milleR]

Yeah, not scared, my friend.

meh, ok. Perhaps "scared" is too strong a word. I know I was "uncomfortable" VFR for a while and only doing it cured that. That being said, the DC/NY airspace is it's own animal, so ymmv with what's the best technique in your neck of the woods.

 

[z987k]

To be fair, when I got my first plane and coming from a 121 background I was scared of VFR too. I was used to somebody (ATC) holding my hand and it felt very uncomfortable giving that up. It took around 50-100 hours before I was genuinely comfortable, actually preferred, VFR to IFR.

I had to jump back into it. First my airplane has nothing for IFR aside from a radio and a transponder that I recently had installed, but second IFR makes no sense. First it's too high and would add hours to my flights climbing for no reason at all(I'm not even sure my airplane will make some of the MEAs), not to meantion put me in danger of icing 8-12 months a year. Second the MVAs are generally not low enough to get down and cancel since they don't make approaches to beaches, sandbars and the 500 or so VFR airports we have. And third, if I have to work that damn hard at flying(hand flying approaches or en-route for hours in a relatively unstable airplane) I don't want to go anyways. I get plenty of IFR at work.