Airshows shouldn't exist

mikecweb said:
If we are going to "ban" things perhaps we should start with midgets riding on horses or car racing. Hell lets ban MMA and football.
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And fill the Grand Canyon!

Close the playgrounds.

BAN GLUTEN AND PEANUTS!

And chocolate. So dangerous for diabetics to be tempted with simple sugars.
 
Derg said:
Is that your way of saying "agree to disagree" which no one actually does?

My state has a big tax-payer sponsored hole in the ground called the Grand Canyon which people fall into with some regularity.
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Quite a difference between a National Park and sending a F-18 to an airshow.

"Taxpayer Dollars" go for all sorts of things you may or may not agree with.
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Yep!
 
mikecweb said:
If we are going to "ban" things perhaps we should start with midgets riding on horses or car racing. Hell lets ban MMA and football.
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You do realize that there is incredible pressure (rightfully so) to change a lot of things around football due to the injuries sustained? Right?
 
I'll throw this out there for general consumption. This is an excerpt from a post by a pilot friend of mine as we and others were discussing this accident.



"Aerobatics used to be beautiful to watch. It was the human hand using a machine in a skilled manner. Most of the air show pilots made livings in airplanes doing jobs like crop dusting (Frank Price), test pilots (Bob Hoover), combination of both (Harold Krier).

They didn't walk around in costumes like NASCAR drivers, require explosions and flames from the ground, do maneuvers that made you think they were in personal peril. Watching them was simply observing the joy of skill in flying.

Like everything in our society that isn't enough. It's got to be amped up to the extreme. Bombed, explosions, over the top personalities, hard edged maneuvers which are no longer beauty to watch.

I recently watched a female Russian aerobatic pilot in a cockpit video and for aviation I thought it was shameful. Her hand was not on the throttle, every maneuver was simply pushing the stick as hard as she could, the airplane was overpowered to accomplish this, and it simply never mattered because the power was never changed.

Put her in a sailplane or clip winged Cub and her skill set won't hold up.

I've also been watching a series of videos of a fellow pilot I know attempting to kill himself. It's just a matter of time, but specifically the above video is a jet in England. The military jets in civilian hands are the earliest generation. They were underpowered and during their era they were not flown doing low altitude loops.

But our era expects it, even though the results are tested, proven and known to be disastrous. It is a shame and here is my angst.

This crash to the non aviation people represents all aviation. Not someone flying a marginal performance machine with no safety margin. Your ego and showmanship and resulting crash ends in the noose being tightened on everyone else.

I extend my point out to all the air show "performers" to reel it in and put safety above all. Showcase beautiful flying, not death defying stunts. This loop could have been performed at a safe altitude with safe results and everyone would have been just as thrilled."
 
Seggy said:
You do realize that there is incredible pressure (rightfully so) to change a lot of things around football due to the injuries sustained? Right?
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And the majority of it is to not use the helmet as a weapon. Which never should have been allowed by any sane thinking coach.
 
Seggy said:
Quite a difference between a National Park and sending a F-18 to an airshow.



Yep!
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How?

Airshows are fantastic military recruitment tools.

National Parks, well, some may see that as a over reach of the federal government to rob the free market of a tangible asset that can be developed.

People can be for or against anything, but I feel as Americans, we need to be very careful when we start banning things while heavily considering statistics and rational, cogent thought.
 
MikeD said:
I'll throw this out there for general consumption. This is an excerpt from a post by a pilot friend of mine as we and others were discussing this accident.



"Aerobatics used to be beautiful to watch. It was the human hand using a machine in a skilled manner. Most of the air show pilots made livings in airplanes doing jobs like crop dusting (Frank Price), test pilots (Bob Hoover), combination of both (Harold Krier).

They didn't walk around in costumes like NASCAR drivers, require explosions and flames from the ground, do maneuvers that made you think they were in personal peril. Watching them was simply observing the joy of skill in flying.

Like everything in our society that isn't enough. It's got to be amped up to the extreme. Bombed, explosions, over the top personalities, hard edged maneuvers which are no longer beauty to watch.

I recently watched a female Russian aerobatic pilot in a cockpit video and for aviation I thought it was shameful. Her hand was not on the throttle, every maneuver was simply pushing the stick as hard as she could, the airplane was overpowered to accomplish this, and it simply never mattered because the power was never changed.

Put her in a sailplane or clip winged Cub and her skill set won't hold up.

I've also been watching a series of videos of a fellow pilot I know attempting to kill himself. It's just a matter of time, but specifically the above video is a jet in England. The military jets in civilian hands are the earliest generation. They were underpowered and during their era they were not flown doing low altitude loops.

But our era expects it, even though the results are tested, proven and known to be disastrous. It is a shame and here is my angst.

This crash to the non aviation people represents all aviation. Not someone flying a marginal performance machine with no safety margin. Your ego and showmanship and resulting crash ends in the noose being tightened on everyone else.

I extend my point out to all the air show "performers" to reel it in and put safety above all. Showcase beautiful flying, not death defying stunts. This loop could have been performed at a safe altitude with safe results and everyone would have been just as thrilled."
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Svetlana? I'm betting all of my horrid salary that she knows what she's doing...
 
mikecweb said:
I do.
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Here is the thing. There have been some pretty high profile accidents surrounding air shows. Yes, you can go driving tomorrow and be tboned by a semi and it be all over. I get that. However, with everyone having a camera, social media, and the thirst for news, you have a few accidents and there will be a public backlash against going to events like this. Furthermore, in the states, good luck getting insurance for events like this. The Reno Air Races (yes, not an air show, but similar) is barley surviving because of the insurance issue.

So, you can keep going down this path or make changes to make it safer.
 
Derg said:
How?

Airshows are fantastic military recruitment tools.
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I think we need a smaller military so I don't care about their recruitment needs.



National Parks, well, some may see that as a over reach of the federal government to rob the free market of a tangible asset that can be developed.

People can be for or against anything, but I feel as Americans, we need to be very careful when we start banning things while heavily considering statistics and rational, cogent thought.
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If smart changes aren't made within an organization it will be forced to change by outside forces. Look at the issues the Reno Air Races have had since their accident to get insurance. It barley happened in 2012 because of that.
 
Seggy said:
Here is the thing. There have been some pretty high profile accidents surrounding air shows. Yes, you can go driving tomorrow and be tboned by a semi and it be all over. I get that. However, with everyone having a camera, social media, and the thirst for news, you have a few accidents and there will be a public backlash against going to events like this. Furthermore, in the states, good luck getting insurance for events like this. The Reno Air Races (yes, not an air show, but similar) is barley surviving because of the insurance issue.

So, you can keep going down this path or make changes to make it safer.
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I personally hate airshows now. I don't like the crowds and traffic and frankly I shouldn't be in that much sun. That being said I would never be able to say "do away with them" simply because I don't enjoy it. Far too many people not only enjoy but benefit from these events for me to make that statement.
 
Seggy said:
Along with the safety concerns around them, I am not a fan of my taxpayer dollars being used to 'thrill' some folks.

Opinions are like asses, everyone has them!
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Seggy said:
So our taxpayer dollars should be used to entertain?
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I could be entirely off base here because I don't know you, but didn't you play football for a Division 1 NCAA school? If I'm correct how do you jibe that attitude with the average student (ie tax payer) who is paying an athletics add on as a line item in their tuition? Again I could be totally off base, but if I'm correct, Joe Local did far less to subsidize the associated expenses. Tax dollars to entertain and all.
 
mikecweb said:
I personally hate airshows now. I don't like the crowds and traffic and frankly I shouldn't be in that much sun. That being said I would never be able to say "do away with them" simply because I don't enjoy it. Far too many people not only enjoy but benefit from these events for me to make that statement.
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Perhaps it is a tad harsh to say 'BAN THEM'.

But, there are significant issues surrounding them, IMHO.
 
genot said:
I could be entirely off base here because I don't know you, but didn't you play football for a Division 1 NCAA school? If I'm correct how do you jibe that attitude with the average student (ie tax payer) who is paying an athletics add on as a line item in their tuition? Again I could be totally off base, but if I'm correct, Joe Local did far less to subsidize the associated expenses. Tax dollars to entertain and all.
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Oh it is completely ridiculous! Don't hate the player, hate the game! The NCAA should be paying for the scholarships, not the taxpayers.
 
Seggy said:
Perhaps it is a tad harsh to say 'BAN THEM'.

But, there are significant issues surrounding them, IMHO.
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Dude there are significant issues with everything if you look hard enough. This was simply an accident. There will be an investigation, things will be learned and hopefully changes made to prevent it. More people have died in the past hour from texting and driving than in this air show crash...
 
MikeD said:
I'll throw this out there for general consumption. This is an excerpt from a post by a pilot friend of mine as we and others were discussing this accident.


I recently watched a female Russian aerobatic pilot in a cockpit video and for aviation I thought it was shameful. Her hand was not on the throttle, every maneuver was simply pushing the stick as hard as she could, the airplane was overpowered to accomplish this, and it simply never mattered because the power was never changed.

Put her in a sailplane or clip winged Cub and her skill set won't hold up.
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Gulfstream Girl / Global Girl?
 
Here's a screen shot of the NTSB data since 2008. The spike from 2011 is from civilian deaths at Reno. The rest are deaths or injuries incurred by performers. Infinitesimal compared to driving, child deaths in their own swimming pool, catching crabs in Alaska, getting killed by farm equipment or even chewing steak. We really should use our heads to think not just react to tragic footage.

Here's the link.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-air-show-safety-by-the-numbers-20150817-htmlstory.html

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