F-16 midair with small plane in SC

NewYorkophile said:
Right- but unless I'm missing something in the transcript, wasn't the F-16 on radar vectors? Since the VFR traffic was reporting position and altitude, how does an IFR aircraft on a clearance get vectored into a squawking target?
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It was? I haven't seen that in any of the reports. As far as I can tell from the NTSB preliminary report, the 152 was nothing more than a "type unknown" primary radar target. That wouldn't be the case if the 152 were communicating with ATC. Do you have some information the rest of us don't?

Or do you simply mean it was squawking 1200 so the primary target should have been enough? There's really not enough information at this point to know exactly what maneuvering the 152 was actually doing, other than to speculate based on where each of us wants to place the blame.
 
NewYorkophile said:
Right- but unless I'm missing something in the transcript, wasn't the F-16 on radar vectors? Since the VFR traffic was reporting position and altitude, how does an IFR aircraft on a clearance get vectored into a squawking target?
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Saying the F-16 was vectored into traffic is a stretch. The pilot delayed 8 seconds in the turn during which time they would have traveled at least a half mile.

Lets not forget either that the 150 was airborne for about 3 minutes before the impact. Even if noticed immediately on takeoff it would take a minute or two to ascertain the aircraft isn't remaining in the pattern, leaving very little time to try and divine exactly what, out of the myriad of options, the C150 was going to do. It isn't like the target had been level and steady on the same heading for several minutes.
 
MidlifeFlyer said:
It was? I haven't seen that in any of the reports. As far as I can tell from the NTSB preliminary report, the 152 was nothing more than a "type unknown" primary radar target. That wouldn't be the case if the 152 were communicating with ATC. Do you have some information the rest of us don't?

Or do you simply mean it was squawking 1200 so the primary target should have been enough? There's really not enough information at this point to know exactly what maneuvering the 152 was actually doing, other than to speculate based on where each of us wants to place the blame.
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The preliminary report said "...altitude indicated 1,200 and climbing..." Since the altitude isn't verified we say,"Delta123, traffic 12 o'clock, 7 miles, opposite direction, altitude indicates 3,200."
 
RobertB said:
So you're telling me that you don't want that C150 to, at the very least, call clearance and find out which why CHS is landing/departing so they can stay away from the final?!? If the pilot had gotten flight following, they might still be alive...
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TRACON has enough planes to work normally, that for aircraft to call them on the ground at a satellite field which haven't even departed yet, there's nothing TRACON can really do for them and I imagine it creates unnecessary workload. Can't radar identify them, can't really work them.

If someone wants to monitor TRACON while on the ground prior to departing, and get some SA as to what's going on in the airspace around them, I could see that being a good idea..
 
MikeD said:
TRACON has enough planes to work normally, that for aircraft to call them on the ground at a satellite field which haven't even departed yet, there's nothing TRACON can really do for them and I imagine it creates unnecessary workload.

If someone wants to monitor TRACON while on the ground prior to departing, and get some SA as to what's going on in the airspace around them, I could see that.
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As someone who works in a busy TRACON, I'd rather someone call me prior to getting anywhere near a possible busy final. If they don't want to call the approach controller, they could at least call Clearance Deivery and find out which way the airport is landing/departing.
 
RobertB said:
The preliminary report said "...altitude indicated 1,200 and climbing..." Since the altitude isn't verified we say,"Delta123, traffic 12 o'clock, 7 miles, opposite direction, altitude indicates 3,200."
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Yes.

The preliminary actually uses pretty much the same language: ""traffic 12 o'clock, 2 miles, opposite direction, 1,200 indicated, type unknown."
 
MidlifeFlyer said:
Yes.

The preliminary actually uses pretty much the same language: ""traffic 12 o'clock, 2 miles, opposite direction, 1,200 indicated, type unknown."
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And my whole point is the type doesn't matter when you are receiving the altitude readout. We are required to issue that traffic in a timely enough manner so that the pilot may request a turn if they wish or we take appropriate action in a timely enough manner so that planes miss.
 
RobertB said:
As someone who works in a busy TRACON, I'd rather someone call me prior to getting anywhere near a possible busy final. If they don't want to call the approach controller, they could at least call Clearance Deivery and find out which way the airport is landing/departing.
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That's cool, and if that works for you and don't mind it, that's even better.

I know PHX has told guys before "call me when airborne."

Me personally, rather than bothering Clearance Delivery and taking up air time explaining how I'm random airplane X at satellite airport Y wanting to know what runway is in use. If Im at an airport thats that close to the radar pattern of the primary airport, I'd rather just visually observe which runway is in use based on the traffic I see from the ground, and confirm it from ATIS when airborne, and avoid accordingly.
 
Regardless of the actual causal factors, I have no doubts that the surviving families (or the various insurers) will bring suit against the Air Force.
 
RobertB said:
So you're telling me that you don't want that C150 to, at the very least, call clearance and find out which why CHS is landing/departing so they can stay away from the final?!? If the pilot had gotten flight following, they might still be alive...
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Correct. Assumption on my part here, but I'm assuming that the C150 knew which runway CHS was using. Either RY15 is the calm wind runway or it was closest aligned with the wind that day (probably both.) The C150 departed and turned east, getting nowhere near the CHS 15 final.
 
Stinger said:
Correct. Assumption on my part here, but I'm assuming that the C150 knew which runway CHS was using. Either RY15 is the calm wind runway or it was closest aligned with the wind that day (probably both.) The C150 departed and turned east, getting nowhere near the CHS 15 final.
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Except by turning east he put himself right in front of a military jet doing a TACAN approach to RWY21...
 
RobertB said:
Except by turning east he put himself right in front of a military jet doing a TACAN approach to RWY21...
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Better check your facts, he was being vectored for the TACAN to RY15. Controller descended the F16 down to the MVA when he was still 30 miles away from CHS. Nothing wrong with it, but that's a long way to fly that low and the controller doesn't have much time to react if something pops up unexpectedly.
 
Stinger said:
Better check your facts, he was being vectored for the TACAN to RY15. Controller descended the F16 down to the MVA when he was still 30 miles away from CHS. Nothing wrong with it, but that's a long way to fly that low and the controller doesn't have much time to react if something pops up unexpectedly.
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Maybe I heard wrong, but I was under the impression the fighter requested a TACAN 21 circle to 15 approach. Either way, I still wish the Cessna had called for flight following.
 
RobertB said:
And my whole point is the type doesn't matter when you are receiving the altitude readout. We are required to issue that traffic in a timely enough manner so that the pilot may request a turn if they wish or we take appropriate action in a timely enough manner so that planes miss.
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I don't think we disagree on anything.
 
Stinger said:
Better check your facts, he was being vectored for the TACAN to RY15. Controller descended the F16 down to the MVA when he was still 30 miles away from CHS. Nothing wrong with it, but that's a long way to fly that low and the controller doesn't have much time to react if something pops up unexpectedly.
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If it was indeed 30 miles out being descended to the MVA, generally speaking that's horrible technique and there is something wrong with it. I'm not sure if containing arrivals in the protected airspace designed for arrivals is out of fashion or what, but to me it just seems like the right thing to do. In class B you're required to go so far as to tell an IFR AC they're exiting/re entering the B and for a good reason.

RobertB said:
Maybe I heard wrong, but I was under the impression the fighter requested a TACAN 21 circle to 15 approach. Either way, I still wish the Cessna had called for flight following.
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Looking at the sectional given the crash site of the C150 on the assigned 260 heading it appears 15 was the more likely approach unless there was a large offset. Either way I agree, I wish they'd called and made their intentions known.

Thinking about this I saw an RA yesterday between a GA and a military transport jet. No way to assess the capability or intent of the 1200 code GA so the military jet was given an amended altitude and issued traffic. Traffic reissued and a vector provided. RA ensues and after resolution the controller heard, "Approach, N123 that was us that caused the RA and we'd like flight following." Maybe the GA tuned in at the exact right moment. Maybe they waited too late to chime in. Maybe they were intent to listen in until a 65 ton jet scared them.
 
genot said:
If it was indeed 30 miles out being descended to the MVA, generally speaking that's horrible technique and there is something wrong with it. I'm not sure if containing arrivals in the protected airspace designed for arrivals is out of fashion or what, but to me it just seems like the right thing to do. In class B you're required to go so far as to tell an IFR AC they're exiting/re entering the B and for a good reason.
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In the Charlie there is no such protected airspace really. Most of our intercepts occur outside of the Class C airspace itself, even if only briefly.

I still agree that the aircraft was too low, and too near a satellite airport. Legal per the MVA, but not a good practice for obvious reasons.

Also there is no need to speculate which approach the F-16 was trying to do. It's right in the preliminary NTSB report


http://www.ntsb.gov/_layouts/ntsb.aviation/GeneratePDF.aspx?id=ERA15FA259A&rpt=p
the F-16 pilot contacted the
approach controller at CHS about 1052 and requested to perform a practice tactical air navigation
system (TACAN) instrument approach to runway 15.
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I hadn't heard of protected airspace for arrivals before. Must just be a Class B thing? From the F16's initial contact with CHS Approach, to the point of impact, was all in Class E.
Also in the NTSB report, it has the distance that the descent was issued at 34nm.
At 1055, the controller instructed the F-16 pilot to descend from his present altitude of 6,000 feet to 1,600 feet. About that time, the F-16 was located about 34 nautical miles northeast of CHS.
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If the only reason I'm stopping a plane from descending to the MVA is that I might have traffic at some point, then that's not a good enough reason for me. It's all about controlling around what you know. So I like to give pilot's discretion descents a lot of the time. Seems like half the time they respond that they're starting the descent now. If they really want to fly down low for 30 miles, I'm not going to stop them.
 
hook_dupin said:
Regardless of the actual causal factors, I have no doubts that the surviving families (or the various insurers) will bring suit against the Air Force.
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As they should. 8 second delay in accepting a turn away from traffic? Controller even came back with a turn immediately (to a heading) if you don't have the traffic in sight. Not one, but two opportunities to avoid a midair were handed to the fighter pilot.
 
Stinger said:
I hadn't heard of protected airspace for arrivals before. Must just be a Class B thing? From the F16's initial contact with CHS Approach, to the point of impact, was all in Class E.
Also in the NTSB report, it has the distance that the descent was issued at 34nm.


If the only reason I'm stopping a plane from descending to the MVA is that I might have traffic at some point, then that's not a good enough reason for me. It's all about controlling around what you know. So I like to give pilot's discretion descents a lot of the time. Seems like half the time they respond that they're starting the descent now. If they really want to fly down low for 30 miles, I'm not going to stop them.
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I don't work my planes that low near satellite airports unless I have a really good reason.
 
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